Kristin Charron (00:01.324)
Welcome back to the Sonic Truth. I am thrilled to have Dane Cardiel in studio today, founder of Good Tape Design Studio and Magazine. Hey Dane, how are you?

Dane Cardiel (00:12.566)
I'm doing so well. It's great to be here.

Kristin Charron (00:15.138)
It's great to have you. Thanks again for coming on. It's been a while since we last connected. So you are in Los Angeles, right?

Dane Cardiel (00:25.826)
Yeah, I've been in LA for about a year now.

Kristin Charron (00:30.676)
Excellent and long standing career in audio obviously former gumball, SXM, simple cast. So super excited to get into podcasting here with you.

So let's just jump right in. How, in terms of the future of podcasting and new media formats, I'd love to pick your brain on how you see podcasting evolving over the next five years and what emerging formats or technologies excite you the most.

Dane Cardiel (01:02.176)
Yeah, I mean, we're in an industry that seems to change every six months. And, the last year or so has really been defined by the video format in general. you know, for the next five years, I feel like one of the things that is really going to change the chemistry of our industry is where the creators are coming from, you know, largely coming from more digital native.

Kristin Charron (01:31.33)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (01:31.534)
platforms, social video, TikTok, Instagram, whatever, whatever platform is sort of in vogue at the time in the next five years, and maybe less so from the like radio, public radio background, the, you know, native audio first background. So, you know, I'm really interesting, it's going to be interesting to see how that sort of changes the complexion of the industry. And hopefully, you know, as we've done,

Kristin Charron (01:46.569)
Okay.

Dane Cardiel (02:01.452)
very well so far is like that education process that is so necessary to like get folks up to speed on like what is the podcast industry and what are the benefits of the industry? How is podcasting maybe different from film, TV, music, know, native social, what have you. So really excited to see how that impacts the industry.

Kristin Charron (02:11.074)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (02:28.746)
And then, yeah, as far as emerging technologies, it's how do we... I don't necessarily foresee a world where all the big players come together and say, you can play in my walled garden now. So while the open ecosystem of RSS is a beautiful and powerful reality for us, and I hope it stays as such for the foreseeable future.

Kristin Charron (02:37.868)
Okay.

Dane Cardiel (02:57.67)
the fragmentation of where our content sort of lives will continue, especially with platforms taking on long form social video clips and, you know, just like expanding where someone could listen to a podcast, quote unquote. All that is like, I feel will be very much in flux and, you know, we're looking to the audience mostly, I think to define where their appetite and interest of the word podcast is and.

Kristin Charron (03:16.294)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (03:27.18)
I do think that that is always gonna be changing and evolving and hopefully we can do our best to keep stride with those changes.

Kristin Charron (03:38.52)
Absolutely. And you mentioned, you know, the creators and video and the different formats, which I think is a good segue into my next question around the role of journalism and taste making in the podcast industry. you know, with podcasting now kind of taking on many different forms as it relates to the consumption.

I think the lines are getting a little blurred between journalism and entertainment. How do you see the role of podcasters evolving as tastemakers and credible sources of information?

Dane Cardiel (04:02.766)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (04:10.094)
Yeah, mean, this is, I think this is generally a tough one. And again, I'm like looking to the audience to, you know, I wonder what media literacy the audiences have today and will have in the future. I imagine, you know, we collectively, you know, in response to the political environment that we exist in today, like there will be a need, I think for like collective need for improving our media.

media literacy and I do hope that does increase and you know with that you know you know if the audience is skeptical of the information that they are receiving from whatever source it is then there is going to be a hopefully unnecessary feedback loop of like you have to tighten up your your journalism you know your how you source information and how you represent that information but

it's hard to think of a world where like journalism and know newsrooms in general are getting more defunded. There's less resources being given to those types of you know long form like year long plus investigations that you know are necessary to like really you know unearth a scoop. Yeah it's

Kristin Charron (05:31.67)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (05:36.238)
I think it's very difficult because you you can give anyone a microphone and you know, back to that power power of RSS and open ecosystem. That message can get distributed very broadly. And yeah, it's it's tentatively fairly dangerous for us to be in an environment where like fact checking and really isn't, you know, isn't a first practice for many podcasters. And

Kristin Charron (05:37.154)
Right.

Dane Cardiel (06:05.346)
You know, as far as like distributing, there's no like gatekeeper or, you know, probably for the best, but there's no like legal, legal gateway to pass through before that content gets out for, for most creators. So, you know, I do wonder what like the legal landscape of podcasting gets into as, as this probably becomes more of an issue. Like what are the consequences of the information that's getting distributed and disseminated?

Kristin Charron (06:15.42)
Sure.

Dane Cardiel (06:32.705)
But I think until those consequences really find themselves hitting the pockets of creators, then it's tentatively a very dangerous environment that we are, if I look at it cynically. At the same time, there are a lot of people, a lot of friends that I have that are very trained, very seasoned journalists that are doing their own projects.

Kristin Charron (06:36.322)
Yeah.

Dane Cardiel (06:59.734)
you know, self-funding their own projects and they're doing an incredible job. have that journalism background. They, they, even with a small team, they're kind of like dotting their I's and crossing their T's with their reporting. and in, in those projects, you know, it's, it's, know, podcasting is a wonderful medium for them to get those, those pieces out into the world. you know, it's, it's a double edged sword, I'm sure, but,

Kristin Charron (07:12.308)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (07:28.854)
we're kind of in this space and in this time where so much of what we're experiencing is unprecedented. And I think it's hard to like future cast what we can expect or anticipate the media environment being in even a year from now, let alone five.

Kristin Charron (07:47.738)
So true. And to kind of zoom out a little bit in terms of the impact of podcasting on a local, national and global stage. What ways do you think if any it's influenced public discourse at these levels and where do see its biggest impact?

Dane Cardiel (08:08.78)
Yeah, know, podcasting is now and maybe has been for a little, a mass reach medium. You know, it is a really profound piece or form of media and one that has evolved and developed in a relatively short period of time compared to the others. And as a mass form of media, you know, the impact of

of entertainment, education, politics, news, et cetera, has a real life impact in our society and in our communities. I think about in LA, LAist and KCRW, there's a couple of really communally minded public radio and media organizations here in LA that are doing incredible reporting about the community and

that is so valuable. Nationally, we think about the past year of the 2024 election being a podcast election year. Podcasting is a way for a mass message to be disseminated. And there's a lot of power in that. think we marketers, operators, creators, we all are looking at podcasting

Kristin Charron (09:18.262)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (09:35.662)
from different vantage points, but all looking at podcasting as a huge opportunity to have influence and to, you know, to endear the public to whatever the message is, or, you know, if it's comedy, just to have a laugh, you know, like, there's just so much potential. And I think when you add in YouTube and video in general, that...

message now seemingly can go to so many more people. as like the legacy media tends to wane, at least for like new generations, like podcasting is becoming a very like nice home for people to get their information. I will say though, like, you know, again, back to LA, you know, with the recent fires, I wasn't going to Twitter for information. I wasn't going to podcasting for information.

Kristin Charron (10:13.986)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (10:32.248)
just the way algorithms work, I'm not getting the most up-to-date information on this very real local crisis. But I was going to, I'm sorry, can you hear me? My...

Kristin Charron (10:47.093)
That's okay. Yes, I can. That was going to be my next question is, where did you turn?

Dane Cardiel (10:52.912)
yeah. I'm sorry. My computer just cut out. So we might have to cut this and go back. Cool. The question was, again, if you could.

Kristin Charron (10:57.62)
that's okay. We can take it again. Yeah, that's fine.

Kristin Charron (11:06.592)
Yes, it was really like the impact of podcasting on local, national, and global stage where you see its biggest impact and you were last talking about how even like locally like in LA with the fires and stuff.

Dane Cardiel (11:21.473)
Okay.

Dane Cardiel (11:26.83)
Okay, so maybe we can just cut it to where that pause was. All right, three, two, one. But yeah, so as far as like locally, I was getting the information from TV, from like legacy TV, from the radio, and I would say like the local legacy media apparatus in LA was like providing tremendous value to like where we get information about this very,

active crisis. you know, I don't think like new media and legacy media are necessarily like fully at odds, like the, the, the time spent with whatever app or media for an average person in the United States, like that's changing and evolving and will change and evolve. But it's not, you know, you know, we're not going to like replace legacy media completely. So

I think as we look at the opportunity of like where a message can get disseminated and where like audiences can be built, you know, it's very much going to be like a multi-platform strategy that's necessary for the individual creator up to like the mass media organization or to, you know, businesses that are coming to podcasting and finding ways to like build more direct relationships with their customer.

And even in just saying how podcasting sits at that space where all these different types of entities can use the medium, it just speaks to the power that podcasting does have in our modern world today, which makes it an incredibly exciting space to still exist in and be in.

Kristin Charron (13:05.966)
Mm hmm.

Absolutely. for, know, obviously podcasting isn't necessarily easy for everyone to get into and to maintain, I think, you know, from a strategic perspective, lot of people don't know where to start or, you know, how to really incorporate it into their other channels and into their larger strategies. from your perspective, what are some of the biggest hurdles that

independent podcast creators specifically face today and what strategies can help them stand out in the crowded space or as it becomes more crowded.

Dane Cardiel (14:01.005)
Yeah, think there are certainly different tiers to independent creators these days. There are the, I would say maybe like top 80 to top 300 shows, many of which are independent creators. And then the like 300 to 1000, top 300 to 1000 shows, that's like another grouping.

Kristin Charron (14:27.714)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (14:28.738)
So maybe the answer is different for those two, but I would say in general, what an independent creator is probably going through today is what are my options in my like partnerships stack? So who do I go to for ad sales? Who do I go to for marketing? Who do I go to for production? And I would say the trend has been over the last few years is an independent creator taking on more of those functions internally into their own.

business. So, you know, maybe four or five years ago, an independent creator would say like, I have IP, let me go to a network, and then they'll do everything for me. Maybe that's happening a little like still, but I would say largely, you know, right now, like an independent creator has their production staff defined, and they're wherever they go, they're taking on their producer, their editors.

Kristin Charron (15:09.698)
Mm hmm.

Dane Cardiel (15:26.848)
et cetera. a lot of cases, those people are going on payroll of whatever company that they're integrated into. But I think increasingly, an independent creator is taking on more of these sales and marketing roles, more of these, at least being more involved in their business. And I think that's really smart to like...

own as much as you can is, I think, really important. And there are a lot of options for creators to work with that generally will net the same revenue for them in a world where they're taking on more, you know, like just thinking about the total share that a creator has to give up in order to use a production house, in order to use a sales organization. There are some creators that are

They have the production in-house and they have an individual seller selling for them. And they're making a lot of money in podcasts today. you the nature of a team, I think a creator is having to kind of come to terms with like, how much can I take on myself? And then where can I like efficiently align with another organization? But they're not so much saying like, I need, you know, like

Kristin Charron (16:25.73)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (16:49.654)
a distributor to make a name for myself. They're largely making a name for themselves. Like if anything, the distributors need them more than the other way around. So that, that partnership sort of relationship is evolving and changing. And, you know, I think creators have more autonomy and control over their business. it's like, which ones are taking on the responsibility of their accounting and their bookkeeping and like,

Kristin Charron (16:56.919)
Right.

Dane Cardiel (17:16.962)
having a trusted team to do that work for them. I hope, just selfishly, hope creators are trying to at least get a little bit more in the weeds of their actual business. Because the closer you are to your business, think the closer you can kind of have the receptors of like, this isn't working, or this could be optimized. let's have some accountability here in order to maximize.

the business versus taking on a much more passive role and like, I'll just do my content and then whatever happens happens. And I hope that that is like less of the case these days. And I think, I think it will be.

Kristin Charron (17:53.426)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin Charron (18:01.78)
And that's actually the perfect segue into my final question for you, which was around the monetization models for podcasters. So, you mentioned, you know, them having a team and, and perhaps, you know, having a seller. Do you think there's any, or what do you think are the most rather sustainable monetization models for podcasters, at least today? And how can they, meaning the creators.

balance revenue generation with audience trust.

Dane Cardiel (18:34.446)
Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I would say there's probably two pretty firm models that are the ones that are being used the most today. And that's like a premium subscription and that's an ad supported model. A lot of the top shows are utilizing both where they'll have like a public feed and then additional content to sort of get people in the through the door as like a

$5 a month subscriber. Those seem to be the most like, those are the strongest sort of models today. You know, the like financing model of like, you know, limited series or getting attached to a network to help develop it, like those, that's certainly happening, but probably at a lesser clip. But you know, I think largely like audiences tend to trust

Kristin Charron (19:05.918)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (19:32.942)
the creator, you know, and will give a little bit more leeway as far as the impact of like a high ad load or even, you know, there's some shows that will go on a Patreon hiatus and say, hey guys, you know, I really needed to take a break for a month, you know, and like, generally the audiences are receptive to like, the health and wellness of the shows that they love so much. So.

You know, I get a lot and I hear a lot. I this idea of like searching for new funding models or new business models is certainly a conversation now, but you know, at the end of the day, you know, we are a medium that relies on ads and advertisers and that's largely a CPM based medium that is tied to impressions. And that is probably fundamentally, you know,

Kristin Charron (20:21.346)
Mm hmm.

Dane Cardiel (20:30.668)
the majority of what is working today in podcasting. So I'm curious what like might evolve beyond that and what could evolve beyond that. But I'm not sure if like the entertainment industry really is like at a point where like, you know, TV and film and documentary buyers like all of this has like really slowed down. But at the same time, you know, we have news recently of Netflix kind of being interested in

in getting into podcasting maybe through their app. I absolutely see a world where there's premium content sort of, you know, in a row on HBO Max or Peacock or Netflix, where, you know, the audiences will find that, I really enjoy podcasting and I'm already watching it on my TV via YouTube. Like, it's not too much of a leap to, I think, for an audience to go to HBO or Netflix, etc.

Kristin Charron (21:18.466)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (21:30.2)
for their weekly podcast content.

So yeah, mean, it's just, it's a fascinating time overall. And I think as businesses in the space, you know, small to large, we're all trying to keep stride and keep our optimism in the space because so much is changing. And sometimes that change feels like it's like slipping through our hands like sand. you know, as we think about the next five years, my, and this is kind of like going to like,

Good tape and where I see good tape fitting in the ecosystem long-term is, you know, we as an industry really need to like own the PR of podcasting and like make active and intentional decisions about how podcasting shows up in the world as a profound entertainment medium and not allow outside industries sort of make those

Kristin Charron (22:23.458)
Sure.

Dane Cardiel (22:35.438)
narrative decisions for us. you know, what the definition of a podcast is, like, I'm less interested in that conversation, frankly. And I'm more interested in like, all billions of people like audio and video content, and they're calling it a podcast. Great. What do do with that? And over the next five years, I think it's really trying to make sure that we're trying to control that narrative.

Kristin Charron (22:52.61)
This is

Kristin Charron (23:02.316)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (23:04.27)
the best we can. And that comes from a cultural perspective, that comes from a B2B perspective, that's like the content that we're investing in. There's so much happening and I really think we have to like own the narrative and really be optimistic and excited about that, you know, even if it's changing in the direction that we're not quite familiar with. You know,

the change is happening and it's happening quickly. it's really up to all of us who've been in the space for a long time to adapt and retain as much control as we can.

Kristin Charron (23:36.61)
And do you feel as though host read ads just by major are impacting

the level of credibility and or like that connection that audiences have with the hosts and largely with the medium. Like, do feel like there'll be any cheapening of the experience if host readouts continue to be as prevalent as they are today?

Dane Cardiel (24:17.038)
I guess that's an interesting question. mean, I have always seen host for dads as like content generally that audiences listen to and enjoy, you know, like there is comparative to other industries, like the drop off rate of or like the skipping rate of content and of ad content is

Kristin Charron (24:30.849)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (24:43.436)
relatively quite low in podcasting compared to other mediums. And kind of going back to that, you know, that dynamic between the premium, you know, subscription business model versus the ad supported business model. think the smart creators in the space that have both a premium and a public feed, they are integrating host road ads in both environments. So the premium subscription.

Kristin Charron (24:45.37)
Sure.

Dane Cardiel (25:11.542)
really shouldn't be an ad free quote unquote ad free. That's not the value prop that audiences go to the premium. They go to it to have a deeper, closer relationship to the host. And in that environment, it's still possible and it should still be possible to integrate, you know, one to two host read ads in that environment without being detrimental to the overall value prop of why someone is subscribing at, at a monthly rate.

Kristin Charron (25:24.578)
Absolutely. I mean, it's definitely, sorry, go ahead.

Dane Cardiel (25:42.444)
And I just find that, No, no, no, please.

Kristin Charron (25:47.581)
I completely agree and maybe I should have been a little more pointy with the question, but I think it comes down to the content of the ad, right? Like I am less inclined as a consumer myself to skip the ad if it's host read verse, you know, something that's more produced or inserted. However, this came up because I was listening to a podcast a couple of weeks ago and the host, you know, I know makes probably three to $5 million a year, but

Dane Cardiel (26:13.966)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin Charron (26:14.658)
she's promoting a Hyundai. And I'm like, highly doubt you're rolling around Los Angeles in a Hyundai. And it almost took away from the listening experience a little bit for me because I immediately thought, hmm, I wonder if there's less to this than, I know, it just didn't seem very genuine.

Dane Cardiel (26:35.766)
Yeah. I mean, I will say Hyundai is a nice car and they, think they have a, feel like, no, but I feel like they are making like a premium plays, like trying to be a more premium elevated car. And they're probably using that person. I I don't know what the, the, content is, but like, that's actually like, you know,

Kristin Charron (26:41.026)
There's nothing wrong with Hyundai by the way. Let me get in front of that. It's a wonderful car.

Dane Cardiel (27:03.886)
That's probably the value. And maybe it's a little awkward in the beginning, but for a brand to like identify cool, like we want to be seen as more premium, more elevated against our competitors. They can like pick. Creators that have large audiences in podcasting to help that transition for them, you know, where it might be awkward at first for you, but if you get here, that message multiple times and then on other shows, suddenly maybe that, that connection makes.

makes sense. So at the same time, you know, I've definitely seen a lot of creators in my experience with both gumball and before gumball just like where they're phoning it in. And those are the ones that like, you know, I always tell, you know, in that, in that, at that, that role, always told creators like the first few ads, if you're, if you've never worked with a brand before, you really have to like,

you know, cater to those first three ads that you do, that you work on with the brand. Like if you phone those in, if you like really don't take care of the messaging as it's being requested of you, if you don't bring that authenticity, it's obvious and you're likely not going to have a long-term relationship with that, with that brand. So yeah, you know, it's going to be more and more competitive, I think, you know, for, for shows and for hosts and talent specifically to

Kristin Charron (28:02.648)
Chair.

Kristin Charron (28:11.898)
It's obvious.

Dane Cardiel (28:28.118)
retain these relationships. like how they execute those ad reads, how they provide added value potentially outside of those ad reads via newsletter or social, et cetera, just like their flexibility and willingness to partner. All those things really make a long-term impact. And if you have a long-term view on your business, you're more willing to take the hit on like, let me give a free ad or let me give some added value here.

But if you're looking at the transactional nature of like, I have to have a high premium CPM or, you you're only going to get what you buy for like that mentality, I don't think really will set folks up for success here.

Kristin Charron (29:08.15)
Sure.

No, it makes perfect sense. That brings me to, well, that is my final question. Is there anything else that you'd like to leave our listeners with as it relates to, you know, really anything on emerging formats, podcasts, growing influence on public discourse and the evolving role of podcasters here? This has been super enlightening.

Dane Cardiel (29:38.87)
Yeah, you know, I guess I'll take this opportunity to just like, you know, give some background on kind of like where I've been and where I'm going, you know, so I've started out at Simplecast as their first employee was there for a long time, transitioned to Gumball, kind of going from analytics tech to ad sales tech in Gumball. And now transitioning out of that role, I'm, you know, I'm looking at

Kristin Charron (29:48.473)
Yeah.

Dane Cardiel (30:08.172)
Basically, Goodtape as like a media brand that will soon begin to release more content digitally. We'll continue to publish our magazine in print on a regular annual basis. But we're also doing work in the design sector. providing, you know, brands and networks and production companies design resources, kind of becoming their creative director in-house to help shape their like

visual aesthetic. So, you know, as I think about like, things to leave on and whether it's with, you know, good tape studio or not, like the visual component to any brand in audio, especially if you're audio only or audio first is only going to be increasingly scrutinized, you know, like recently, YouTube

Kristin Charron (30:39.002)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (31:04.181)
went from a four by four grid to a two by two column grid. the images are much larger now on YouTube when someone is scrolling through. like how you think about visually packaging your audio and or audio video projects I think is important. So that's really, I'm excited for this next year for us to like.

Kristin Charron (31:16.958)
Mm-hmm.

Dane Cardiel (31:30.722)
really invest in that work and hopefully improve the visual aesthetic for those in need of it. And then beyond that through the magazine, it's like, want more cultural criticism, cultural reporting, big profiles happening in the podcasting space on a regular basis. So very excited to invest more in the editorial vision of the magazine to be

Kristin Charron (31:38.754)
Bye.

Dane Cardiel (31:59.694)
a space where you can anticipate and expect from us like interesting, funny, engaging, relevant articles and journalism on this space. And in the process, we're going to expand that beyond podcasting and just like new media in general, creator economy, again, less from the B2B side and more from like, who are these people? What are these stories? like, what is the impact of this all?

Kristin Charron (32:08.578)
That sounds awesome.

Dane Cardiel (32:29.23)
A very excited few months ahead and definitely in a moment where wanting to work with people and wanting to connect with as many people as possible to figure out where the overlap might exist in either of those worlds.

Kristin Charron (32:44.63)
That is so fun and kudos for really bringing that to life. feel like especially being in the space for a long time, there's a huge gap there and I'm excited to see you and the VUITAPE team fill that. If anyone's interested in getting involved or learning more or even just checking it out, where should they go? Where can they find you?

Dane Cardiel (33:08.14)
Yeah, so we're at goodtape.com. Definitely sign up for our newsletter there. And if anyone wants to personally reach out to me, it's just dane at goodtape.com. Feel free to send a note.

Kristin Charron (33:22.088)
Awesome. Well, thank you again, Dane. This has been such a wonderful conversation. We'll have to have you back on again soon so we can hear more about the progress you're making. But I really appreciate the conversation and the insights and wish you the best of luck with good tape.

Dane Cardiel (33:39.448)
Yeah, thank you so much, Christian.

Before we close out, can I just say thank you so much, Kristen, better? For some reason it came out Christian.

Kristin Charron (33:46.327)
Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. I'll set you up. Thank you so much, Jane. Yeah, I know. I was like, no, can we do that again? No, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.

Dane Cardiel (34:02.318)
Thank you so much, Kristen.

Kristin Charron (34:04.692)
There we go. We got it. Awesome. Let me go ahead and hit stop.