[(00:01)] Speaker 1: This week on the Sonic Truth, Ver tonics VP of Marketing, Kristin Sharon, is joined by Tomas Rodriguez at the Trade Desk to discuss the evolution of podcasting, the power of programmatic ad buying key tenants, brands should consider as they amplify the use of audio in their marketing mixes and best practices for audio creative and targeting. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and welcome again to the Sonic Truth.

[(00:25)] Kristin: Welcome back to The Sonic Truth. Today I have the pleasure of being joined by Tomas Rodriguez, director of Emerging Channels Audio at the TradeDesk. Welcome, Tomas.

[(00:35)] Rodriguez: Thanks so much, Kristin. I'm glad to be here.

[(00:37)] Kristin: It's such a pleasure to have you and to actually have this one-on-one time. We've been on a lot of joint calls lately and joint events, but it's wonderful to be able to dive a little bit deeper into audio with you.

[(00:48)] Rodriguez: Definitely. I've seen you as one of the squares on a big zoom call, so I appreciate the one-on-one time

[(00:54)] Kristin: [laughs]. So let's-let's dive right in. So first off, we talked about your title already, so Director of Emerging Channels Audio at the Trade Desk. How, in your opinion, has digital audio and podcasting evolved from a new to emerging and now established marketing channel in recent years? And what do you think is driving that evolution?

[(01:13)] Rodriguez: I love that question, probably because it's so nuanced, and I'm sorry, we gotta get nuance right from the jump here, but I think we have to split this up between digital music streaming in on one side and podcasting on the other. Music streaming, I would say is an established channel. Uh, both, you know, just a normally, like for users, but also for marketers, and even from a programmatic lens. Music streaming has been around for the last six years in programmatic and has scaled buyers, scaled sellers, and is-is definitely fully emerged. We would like to joke on my team, like when is a channel fully emerged? I would say music streaming is fully emerged.

[(01:56)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

[(01:57)] Rodriguez: Challenge with music streaming these days is ad supported music streaming is getting challenged. It's getting challenged by a lot of big tech companies like an Amazon or Google, uh, or an Apple who are offering fully subscription non-ad, uh, ad supported music streaming services that are bundled with other solutions like Apple TV plus. Then you get Apple Music or something like that.

[(02:21)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

[(02:22)] Rodriguez: And so you see the rise of, uh, music subscription services, but maybe that doesn't translate into advertising impressions. And I think, so that's-that's a channel that's fully emerged, but maybe is being challenged a little bit. But the scale that we might see drop off from music streaming is totally getting picked up by podcasting. And podcasting, I would say is still in early days, uh, especially from a programmatic lens. And when, you know, one of my roles here at-at the TradeDesk is really to help channels get to fully emerged, fully programmatic, and all these channels take similar paths. Whereas when, you know, early in the days, whether it's display or tv, everything's done in like a direct IO basis or a, you know, time based sponsorship basis. That's very much what we're seeing in podcasts today with hostra[?]

[(03:12)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

[(03:13)] Rodriguez: But eventually, in order for brands to achieve scale, they need to invest in maybe like not just the top 100 podcast, but maybe the top 500, the top thousand podcasts. And that's where you need dynamic ad insertion. You need a little bit of data buying and buying at scale. I think we're just in-in that part of the podcast, uh, life cycle

[(03:37)] Kristin: Mm-hmm. And one of the biggest concerns that we hear about and read about when it comes to buying at scale buying programmatically is brand safety, uh, especially as it relates to podcasts. So how can a brand ensure that their ads won't bump up against any content that they consider to be conflicting?

[(03:54)] Rodriguez: Brand safety's huge. In order for us to get buyers comfortable with buying podcasting at scale, you need tools that they can trust so that, just like you said, when they're buying podcasts, they know that they're gonna be alongside brand safe content. This year's been so much learning for me. One of the things that I've learned is that these solutions are out in market and they're growing. You have established companies like a comScore or maybe a Moat or IAS that are working on both brand suitability solutions for podcasts, but also auditability measurement, which is really cool. And then you have new companies like Barometer and Sounder, and I apologize if I don't mention more. There-there are more, uh, that are coming about. And really what they do is they pull down these podcast files, they scan them with artificial intelligence, and they categorize them based on if they're suitable across a variety of categories.

These solutions are available today. You can ask your pod-podcast publisher partners to, uh, and-and ask them who are they working with and-and what type of capabilities are available right now. And you can run direct IO with brand suitability, podcasting and programmatic with brand suitability podcasting. And if I can back up for one second, when we think of creating channels here at the TradeDesk, we think about establishing trust and trust really is-is, uh, established across four pillars. One of them being brand safety. So I'll put that one away and I'll just focus on the three other pillars. The first being audience targeting and-and just targeting in general. Can you... can a buyer bring their own first party audiences? Can they layer over geo targeting so they-they can get really precise on the types of users they're-they're reaching.

That's available in programmatic today. I'm-I'm really happy about that. The second one is scale. Does this channel, does this new emerging channel have enough scale for a buyer to implement those very specific targeting strategies? And I think that's what podcast is excelling at actually right now, is that there's both independent podcast networks and large podcast networks that are making their inventory available programmatically. So the scale number two is very much there. We talked about brand safety, that's usually my tenant number three. And then, but finally it's measurement. And that's where, uh, you know, cross device solutions are-are coming into play. Um, that's where Veritonic comes into play, that-that can be applied programmatically as long as we have these four tenants. The number one targeting, number two scale, number three, brand suitability and number four measurement. Um, we, you know, we can invite more brands to buy an emerging channel programmatically. And it is-it's exciting in podcast because I feel like we're-we're really getting there. We're really making a lot of progress quickly.

[(06:45)] Kristin: And is it those four tenants targeting scale, brand suitability and measurement that you feel when those all get to kind of a-a peak, if you will? Is that when a channel's considered fully emerged, or is there more that goes into that?

[(07:01)] Rodriguez: I think that is when it's fully emerged. I would say maybe the last cherry on top when we consider channel fully emerged is when the channel can make a true impact in an advertiser's, um, MM model, uh, their media marketing mix model that tells them that helps them plan, that helps them do measurement at the end of the campaign. When a-when a channel has, is having big impact on that MM model, that's when we're like, Ooh, this is really emerged.

[(07:31)] Kristin: And would you say that solutions like attribution and brand lift as it relates to audio is a big piece of identifying impact on that media marketing mix?

[(07:43)] Rodriguez: Essential, absolutely essential. And so the reason why I mentioned these four tenants, really, if you put all those together, what you equal is trust. Brands need to trust that their media investments are-are gonna give them returns and is not going to put them in jeopardy for like, you know, compromising their brand equity and stuff. So it-it's really trust that we're trying to build with these four tenants.

[(08:09)] Kristin: And that's actually a good segue because if there are brands that either aren't yet utilizing audio or are just testing the waters, what are the two to three most important things that they should be thinking about as they consider to add audio to their marketing mix or do more of it?

[(08:27)] Rodriguez: Absolutely. Again, love this question. It-it's a, it's kind of a tough one when you're... when you're a brand and you're spending a lot in display and you're spending a lot in pre-roll video, you might be spending in CTV and then you're like, okay, I wanna spend an audio, but like, there's no screen. You know, sometimes they get like, you know, what happens there? So I think the first thing is to just like meet audio where it is, where there is no screen and you're probably not gonna get a lot of clicks. But what that means is you can measure view through or listen through conversions. And for that you need, I-I'm sure ver tonics very well versed in this, you know, cross device solutions, different tools in your toolbox to make sure that you're still tying someone listened to that audio ad if they made it to your webpage and started performing actions.

But also, I think audio is-is best used when it's used alongside other channels. If you have an audio ad, if you serve a user, an audio ad, and then you follow up later, maybe later on that day with a mobile display ad or a desktop video ad, that combination has gotta equal action. The audio ad itself, because the-the phone might be in a user's pocket or, you know, there might not be a phone at all. It might be over a-a smart speaker, there might not be action for the user to take immediately, but if you follow up and reach that target audience with a follow up ad, then they-they might be, uh, they might perform that action.

[(09:51)] Kristin: Right. It's really about becoming a part of the every day, right. Like the soundtrack of their lives, if you will. It might not be that they're, to your point, taking an action right away, but you're with them throughout the day and your message-message is resonating throughout the day.

[(10:05)] Rodriguez: That's right.

[(10:07)] Kristin: So in terms of audio creative, are there any best practices and targeting strategies that they should keep in mind based on the delivery of the audio ads? So whether it's post read, announcer read programmatic?

[(10:21)] Rodriguez: It's, uh, another awesome question, and this is where I'm learning. You know, I-I've only really jumped into the audio space a hundred percent maybe for the last year and some change where previously I was focused on Connect tv and I've been really excited about some of the-the research that I'm hearing about and, and reading. And here's a couple tidbits that I've been learning about, uh, over-over the last year. Um, one is that there's a Nielsen study that talked about podcast ads that are 35 seconds or longer are performing better than shorter podcast ads. I think that's really interesting. I think, uh, the command of the, uh, listener's attention is important and, um, yeah, I think that's something brands can consider. Also, there's a really cool article in ad exchanger about, uh, a Tostitos really diving into audio advertising and-and really leaning on their sonic brand-branding. And I think that's really cool. If you're accompanying considering audio and you maybe haven't developed your signature chime or your signature crunch in the case of Tostitos, um, I think that's something that, uh, is worth considering the next time you're doing your, uh, your brand meeting.

[(11:37)] Kristin: Couldn't agree more on that one. Selfishly, [laughs]

[(11:41)] Rodriguez: Definitely.

[(11:42)] Kristin: Question for you on the, so you came from CTV, you've been in audio for a little over a year now. Do you think with the-the study you referenced to 35 seconds or longer resonating more than, than shorter ads, do you think that's just because consumers are so used to long form content, especially as it relates to the media, the television, the films that they're watching?

[(12:06)] Rodriguez: I-I do believe that, but I think audio is a unique medium where, you know, you can, I can listen to a podcast while do while washing the dishes.

[(12:13)] Kristin: Right.

[(12:14)] Rodriguez: And so you might need to, you know, command the-the listener's attention for a little bit longer. Repetition I think is important when you're doing audio advertising. I-I think, you know, the people that are involved in audio, we love to say, uh, the space between a listener's ears is way more powerful than any size screen.

[(12:34)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

[(12:35)] Rodriguez: And so what are the ways that you can invoke the imagination? Uh, can you add elements in your audio spot like the crashing of waves or the, uh, the calling of seagulls that can transport a listener, uh, to wherever you wanna take them. Uh, I think keeping those elements in mind, plus the repetition plus the length is-is gonna capture your-your listener the best.

[(12:59)] Kristin: Absolutely. So speaking of programmatic being relatively new to the podcast industry, is there a particular vertical or type of advertiser that's buying podcasts programmatically?

[(13:10)] Rodriguez: In short answer, yes. You know, when you buy a podcast from a host read point of view, almost by default it's a national campaign or even a global campaign, like you are stitching your ad in that episode and who, wherever that episode is listened to, uh, that's gonna be, you know, your target audience or the audience that you reach. And that's really great for maybe like a direct consumer brand where they can really deliver their-their product anywhere in the world. But it might be harder for brands and advertisers who only have brick and mortar stores where like they, it doesn't make sense for them to target nationally. I always think of a burger chain called Culver's. I used to live in Chicago in the Midwest.

[(13:50)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

[(13:51)] Rodriguez: I love getting a Culver's butter burger. And, but Cu-Culver's is a very regional, uh, QSR it probably doesn't make sense for them to sponsor a national podcast.

[(14:02)] Kristin: Sure.

[(14:02)] Rodriguez: So they might be someone who might be really good in programmatic where they can do geo targeting, or maybe they wanna target a very specific type of person with some audience targeting. Um, those are the brands, you know, the ones that focus on geolocation or the ones that wanna put their first party data to work. Those are the brands that are buying podcasts programmatically.

[(14:23)] Kristin: And are you seeing any kind of shift in terms of budget on those brands? Either a little more towards podcasting or is it still kind of a-a wide range of tactics that they're deploying?

[(14:36)] Rodriguez: It's a wide ra-range of tactics. The, the early adopters of-of podcasting. Usually what I see is they're like, we're already investing in music streaming. Oh, podcasting's, cool, let's test that out.

[(14:47)] Kristin: Mm-hmm.

Rodriguez [(14:48)] : That's probably been the-the the what I've seen most often. But as we're getting to the end of the year, and especially if we're getting-we're getting into 2023 and brands starting to think about what their strategy is there, we are having conversations where brands are saying, what's my 2023 programmatic podcasting strategy? And I I think that's really exciting.

[(15:07)] Kristin: That is really exciting. Okay. I think it's rapid fire time. Are you ready?

[(15:12)] Rodriguez: I'm ready.

[(15:13)] Kristin: First question, what is your favorite podcast?

[(15:16)] Rodriguez: Okay. I really deliberated over this one. Uh, okay. I'll start with Derek Thompson. Uh, he, uh, he has a podcast named Plain English. And what I really love about this podcast, it's-it's very objective covering current events, but it's objective, but not just like, covering the headlines of news. It really goes really deep. So that I really appreciate, but I just wanna sneak another one in there. There's-there's a podcast called A Way to Garden by Margaret Roach. Uh, she's a gardener here in the northeast. She-she writes a column for the New York Times and she just talks about gardening in the northeast. I'm a big gardener, so I-I really love, I-I-I devour that podcast really.

[(15:56)] Kristin: I'm gonna have to check that out. Those are both new to me. Thank you for the recommendations. Um, alright. And during what activity do you stream audio the most?

[(16:05)] Rodriguez: Definitely commuting. Uh, and then number two I would say running, I-I did some marathon training last year and on those long, you know, 18 mile, 20 mile runs, I don't think I could have done it without, you know, the two to three podcasts I would always listen to.

[(16:21)] Kristin: Yes, that's true. You definitely need something to keep your attention. And which marathon did you run?

[(16:26)] Rodriguez: Oh, okay. This is a different story. Uh, I ran a marathon in Antarctica. Uh...

[(16:31)] Kristin: What?

[(16:31)] Rodriguez: I know, it's my dad's idea. He wanted to do a marathon on-on each continent. And so, uh, he kind of dragged me to that one. It was great experience though. Very cool.

[(16:43)] Kristin: Wow. So you ran it with your dad?

[(16:45)] Rodriguez: Yes, yes, that's right.

[(16:46)] Kristin: Incredible. Good for you guys.

[(16:49)] Rodriguez: Oh, thanks.

[(16:50)] Kristin: Wow. I love that. Um, okay, last question. If you could spend the day with any one podcast host, who would it be and why?

[(16:59)] Rodriguez: This was an awesome question and the podcast host is Wesley Morris. He, um, he hosts a podcast called Still Processing. It's part of the New York Times. He's the, I think he's the critic at large at the New York Times. Wonderful writer. But the reason I wanna spend time with him is cuz his laugh. He has the best laugh and like, I-I don't know, I can not know what he is laughing about, but if I hear his laugh, I'll start laughing too. So I-I think it's Wesley Morris.

[(17:28)] Kristin: Well, now I need to look him up and hear that laugh. And I can only, I'm just picturing you training for your marathon all by yourself, running 18 miles laughing hysterically.

[(17:37)] Rodriguez: That's exactly what would happen. That's-that's exactly what would happen.

[(17:41)] Kristin: [laughs]. Well, thank you again, Tomas. I really, really enjoyed this conversation. I always, it's always such a pleasure to catch up with you. And I hope that we can have you back on again soon.

[(17:51)] Rodriguez: Of course. I would love to thank you

[(17:54)] Speaker 1: At Ver tonics[?] we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing and measurement, visit vertonic.com or contact marketing@vertonic.com.

[END]