[(0:01)] Host: On this episode of the Sonic Truth, founder and CEO of the Podglomerate, Jeff Umbro, joins Veritonic, Kristin Sharon, to discuss the creation, distribution, and monetization of podcasts. Including trends in brands, embracing audio sponge delivery services and more. Thank you again for tuning in and welcome back to the Sonic Truth. [(0:22)] Kristin: Welcome back to The Sonic Truth. I am thrilled to be joined today by Jeff Umbro, founder and CEO of the Podglomerate, which is a podcast services agency that produces distributes and monetizes podcasts. Welcome, Jeff. [(0:37)] Jeff: Hey, thanks so much for having me. [(0:39)] Kristin: Thanks so much for being on. I have to say I was doing my research before, uh, I was gonna have you on today, and we have a lot in common, including Boston as, uh, our... uh, Boston and New England in general is our location for, uh, college and also you grew up in Exeter, which is about forty five minutes away from where I grew up. [(1:00)] Jeff: Yeah, I-I-I am a born and raised New Hampshire native, uh, went to school in Boston, also in upstate New York. Um, lived in New York City for the better part of a decade, and I'm a COVID refugee, so I-I moved back to New Hampshire a few years ago and, um, no-no real plans on leaving. I'm a big fan of it up here. I-I will say, as a random aside, that there is a lot of audio professionals in New Hampshire, um, many more than you would initially think. It's kind of a-a nice little alcove or haven for audio folks. [(1:33)] Kristin: Really? Interesting, so let's, I guess just get right into it. Um, you know, we-we like to talk about... the first question we like to ask many of our guests is, you know, in your experience and from your, uh, perspective of when a brand or you know, a-an individual comes to you and says they wanna get into audio, what would you say the benefits are? [(1:57)] Jeff: It's a big question, but, um, I-I think the audio is uh, kind of like the next frontier for a lot of different marketing folks out there and-and publishers in general, I should say. You know, we use publishing as kind of this catchall, which most people think means like a media company, but generally speaking, I think of publishers as anybody who's putting out content that is meant to engage, educate, entertain. You have commercial publishers for books, music, movies, TV shows and podcasts. They're kind of the, 1 of the newer kids on the block in that regard. I think that as a consumer, there's all kinds of reasons that brands would want to be associated with these shows. I think that there are podcasts out there that are really relevant to any kind of interest, or niche that a brand may want to target for their promotional efforts. You know, whether they're selling a product, a service, looking for lead generation thought leadership, and it doesn't necessarily even mean that these brands have to be looking for like paid opportunities or paid promotions. You can pitch, you know, folks at your company for interviews. You can look at cross promotional opportunities. Uh, really anything that like gets in front of an audience could be really valuable for a brand no matter what form that takes, and 1 of the things that I personally will ask anybody who's coming to us, whether it's an advertiser or somebody who wants to make a branded podcast, uh, is, you know, what is your goal here? Do you want to just sell a product? Do you wanna find an audience? Do you wanna find your niche? Do you wanna, you know, have thought leadership, uh, around a certain subject matter? Um, cause there's a thousand different ways to tackle it, and I think the most important that anybody can do on the brand side or on, you know, frankly on the consumer side, is to just understand what you're hoping to get from a project, and then, you know, you spend every waking moment working on that project trying to deliver on that goal. [(3:54)] Kristin: Yeah, that's-that's fair, and obviously it's a really engaged medium, right? Like you would think for brands, consumers that listen to podcasts are connected with the hosts or connected with the content and, you know, podcasting in general is like the soundtrack of their day. It's a companion medium, so kind of in the way that, you know, advertisers leaned into social, where they get direct interaction with their audience, they're becoming a part of, in the case of podcasting, a part of the experience. Do you think that that in itself is, uh, a benefit that's being more and more understood these days? [(4:30)] Jeff: Yeah, a 100%. Forgive me, you-you just said something great. It was a soundtrack of your life. Uh, and I couldn't agree more. Um, I think that a lot of listeners today are looking at podcasts as something that they can do in found time, whether that's at the gym, you know, doing household chores, uh, on your commute to the office. If you're doing... I shouldn't say this, but like, if you're doing like a boring task at work and like filling out a spreadsheet or something, you can throw a true crime show on in the background. Uh, and I think that I think that there's a lot of... [(5:01)] Kristin: There's interesting choice. [(5:04)] Jeff: Yeah. Uh, I may or may not have done that at a job historically, but I think that, uh, I-I don't do it today, which is the biggest irony now that I work in podcasting, but, you know, many a day at a former job, I would be just blasting through my favorite show of the week. Um, but I think that there's, uh, a few different ways that you should be looking at like how to engage with that audience, and, you know, the most obvious for brands these days is just, you know, do you buy ads on a show that you think is relevant to how your audience is... would be listening like demographically, contextually, uh, genre specific or otherwise? You know, for example, if you are selling like, uh, a food delivery service or a new pan or, uh, 1 of my favorites is there's a sponge delivery co-company. Fun fact, human beings do not replace their sponges often enough. [(5:53)] Kristin: It's gross. [(5:54)] Jeff: Yeah, very gross. Uh, but how perfect is that? If you're, you're doing the dishes listening to a food podcast like sponge in hand and you hear an ad for this like sponge delivery service. Outside of the like, variables of life. Like, you know, if you have money in the bank, like you're probably... and-and it's a sponge, it's not very expensive, you're probably gonna move on something like that, if it just strikes you at the right moment, so I think that the really interesting thing that differentiates podcasting from other forms of media is this found time. Like, you're not sitting there, you know, scrolling through Instagram while you're watching a Netflix show, or you're not seeing a billboard as you're driving down the highway. You're actually like in these moments of your life that for a lot of us are-are really when we get to like experience the joys of what we're doing every day. You know, if we're exercising or if we're driving to see a friend or if we're cooking at dinner for our loved ones. Like these are the moments that really stick with you. Oftentimes like you might be distracted by what you're doing in the moment when you're listening to like a podcast and you hear an ad for something, or you hear somebody tell a story about, you know, an experience or a product that you wanna try. You're often able to just sit down and, you know, do your research or click the button or go to a link like right on the spot as opposed to, you know, coming across this in a different medium. I also think that there's something to be said about just the experience and the emotional connection that you have with the hosts of your favorite shows. I know it's kind of a like old trope at this point and cliche, but there really is something to be said about experiencing like a really compelling story or, uh, listening to a conversation about your favorite TV show from a host that you really like get to know and understand, so, you know, whether it's host read or not, like you're having a moment with some of these shows and you hear about a product that you might love, and it'll stick with you because of like who you're experiencing it with and how you're experiencing it. [(7:50)] Kristin: Most definitely the influence is real. Um, and I think that goes both ways, right? Like, I know there's been a lot of talk in the media as of late about, um, you know, making sure that the hosts and those that are promoting these products are actually users of it cause there's definitely been cases where I've been listening to podcasts and they're talking about, you know, the-the new mattress they ordered or the the car they're driving, and I'm thinking to myself, there's no way that you... you know, nice, I see what you're trying to do there, and maybe that's just me being, um, you know, critical because I work in this space and I understand how these things work, but, um, it's certainly interesting. [(8:26)] Jeff: I'll-I'll leave specific names out, but there have been stories recently about exactly what you're talking about where, uh, a product may not actually be doing the things that it's saying that it's doing, and, um, and in other forms of media, there's a lot of regulation that happens around advertising. Like you can't say that you have some miracle drug treatment that doesn't actually do what it says without getting in trouble, and-and that same thing should apply to podcasting. Uh, and it's starting to, I-I believe, and I could be mistaken here, but I believe that the FTC has recently started looking at podcast ads and you know, it's something that if advertisers and hosts of shows are not already doing, like they should definitely plan on doing so like legally speaking, but also just because they're listeners deserve it. I think that... I can't speak for you, Kristen, but most of the hosts that we work with, uh, if not all of them, they are pretty rigid in terms of their expectations for promoting a product. Uh, none of them are gonna go and support something that they haven't experienced on their own. Um, whether that's, you know, testing out like a new SaaS product or, you know, trying out the new shampoo that comes into the... in the mail or, you know, I-I know a lot of folks have actually found like products that they love based on advertisers that come through their podcast. Um, you know, I've been converted before. [(9:47)] Kristin: Yeah, and honestly, I think that's-that's wonderful to hear and that's really how it should work, is like legitimate interest and experiences with the products that, you know, are tied to these shows. Um, so that's-that's nice to hear, but in thinking through, you know, from an advertiser perspective, I know this is obviously a little bit outside of the-the wheelhouse of what you guys do in the larger picture, but there's been a lot of innovation. You know, I think measurement is always a question, right? Like, how do I know that the audio assets that I'm using are effective? How do I know that they're positively influencing consumer's experience with my brand? And how do I know, you know, in the grand scheme of things alongside my other, um, advertising channels like display and social and video, that that's really helping to move the needle. Do you have any perspective or thoughts on that from either, you know, those that you work with or otherwise around, or how technologies like brand lifted attribution are helping to increase the amount of brands that are investing in audio? [(10:48)] Jeff: Yeah, a 100%. I think that, you know, in the beginning of podcasting, you really couldn't do much to study how impactful 1 of these ads were, at least not through like the beeps and beeps of the internet and the clicks that come through and pixel tracking and-and the things that were available in other mediums, so for a long time it was really difficult for brands to track this kind of attribution and they would do things like brand lift studies, which are amazing, but also have their limitations. Today, you can run all kinds of different pixel trackings and retargeting campaigns, uh, and like really fly all over the internet to see like how people are engaging with your ads based on these audio spots. You know, you had the brands initially who were really interested in testing out the medium, but the testing has been done, you know, people understand how impactful this can be and-and you still need to figure out what works specifically for your product when it comes to genre and demographic targeting and timing, frankly. Uh, and-and all, all those fun pieces and what kind of copy is gonna work best for your ad, but I think it's pretty widely understood that if you put the time, energy, and resources into figuring that out, this can be a really powerful medium to like convert for new customers for new, um, users of your product. On my end though, I think that my favorite part about podcast advertising is A, the attribution, but combined with the soft science behind trying to figure out what's impactful based on like how you're structuring your different ad campaigns. What kind of messaging are you putting out there? Like I love the data that comes from all of this, but sometimes the data doesn't tell the whole story, and so I think that's where like really working to try and figure out what is impactful in-in trying to understand why. I think that's the thing that really makes the difference between the brands that are like happy with podcast advertising and the ones that are, you know, thrilled with podcast advertising. [(12:45)] Kristin: Agreed, and that's something that, you know, we at Veritonic have been really trying to evangelize as well as, you know, it's not necessarily throwing something against the wall and seeing what sticks. At least it doesn't have to be that way anymore, especially with the economic times as they are right now. I think now is more important than ever to kind of have that insurance, if you will. In that, um, that investment, and so you can actually take your audio assets and test them to ensure that, you know, you're using the right script points, you're using a resonating voice over, the music bed that you chose is appropriate for the tone. You know... you can really, you know, there's a lot that you can do from a data perspective in addition to distrusting your gut, um, to ensure that what you're going to put in market will perform and result in the ROI that you're looking for, and-and you'll see, you know, those... the-the payoff in terms of your KPIs or, you know, if you have something in market currently that you can optimize it and make it, you know, perform even better than it currently is. [(13:45)] Jeff: Yeah, I think it's a-a-a good recipe, a happy medium between trusting your gut and looking at the data. [(13:53)] Kristin: For sure. Um, how many of the clients that you work with come to you and for a branded podcast, um, and how does that process work? Like where... how do you really... are there any best practices that you provide them in terms of getting started? [(14:10)] Jeff: Sure. Yeah. It's kind of funny because it's-it's difficult to say, I mean, this is gonna sound crazy for anyone listening, but I do think sometimes it's difficult to say like, what is a branded podcast versus like an institutional content like vehicle, um, you know, we work with a lot of universities, think tanks, etcetera, that are putting out podcasts that, you know, on 1 day you might seem... you might feel like it's a branded show, and on another you might feel like this is like a-a consumer-oriented show meant to get a message across. Um, so understanding that that's kind of a squishy area. I would say that about a third of the shows that we work with are "branded". Um, and then, you know, I'd say like 10% of the shows that we work with are like heavy branded podcasts. Um, and it just goes back to the idea of like, what are they trying to accomplish? And there's different ways to touch on each of those goals. You know, if a brand is telling me that they wanna reach like a-a very particular subset of doctors or something, then we're gonna design a show that is surrounding like that... like very particular subset. It may not even be about that particular kind of medicine. What we would try and do is create a show that people who are interested in that field would be interested in listening to, and it's funny, we've never actually done this, but somebody in a meeting recently said like, "Yeah, if you want to hit doctors, then make a True Crime podcast." Uh, and I I thought that was so funny. Um, and you know, the, the truth is that there's a thousand different ways to try and figure that out, and like, yes, there are best practices when it comes to making a podcast surrounding, you know, your resources, your budget, your time management, like the people that are involved and-and we have those and present those and-and really like work with our partners to educate them on these things. At the end of the day, like 1 of the things that we often do is just ask the question like, do you need a branded podcast? Is this something that could be accomplished by taking like a few people from the company and pitching them as guests on other shows? Should you be just buying ad space to try and place your product or-or your message or your white paper elsewhere with people who are already listening to a show that already have an established audience? And, you know, if we can answer all those questions and-and at the end of the day it still says like, let's make a branded show for a hundred reasons. Like, somebody maybe wants to build their marketing funnel to create, like, engage listeners to bring thought leadership to the space, that's when we really sit down and say, "We should create a show that, you know, touches on A, B and C." Um, I know I'm being very vague here, but it... there's a lot of different ways to do this, so, [(16:52)] Kristin: Yeah. No, that makes sense, and I think from what it sounds like, it's-it's helping them understand all of the opportunities within audio and then identify what's best for them based on their goals, which I think is really fair. [(17:05)] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we-we have people that come to us and the podcast that they want is many multiples of what their budget is, and, you know, the worst thing that you can do is steer somebody into making a show that they're not gonna be happy with. Uh, and so we-we like to avoid that at all costs, and I think that the right way to do that is to just kind of better educate these brands to see what other opportunities are available. [(17:30)] Kristin: That makes sense. Is there anything new and exciting that you guys at the Podglomerate currently have going on, or have coming up that you wanted to talk about Ortiz? [(17:40)] Yeah. 1-1 of the things that we really... uh, and thank you for asking. 1 of the things that we really focus on at Podglomerate more than anything is, uh, just how, how do you drive awareness and-and new audience and new listeners to a podcast. Um, we like to think of the listeners as the community for that particular podcast, because we work with so many different kinds of podcasters. Like we will have somebody who emails us who's, you know, making a show in their parents' basement and just trying to have fun and they may have a hundred listeners here and there and, you know, put it on YouTube, and then on the same note, we might have the CMO of a Fortune 500 company reaching out to us asking about what they can be doing in the podcast space. It just strikes me that there's often a gap there and-and we want to be the ones that can help bridge that, so we're actually launching a new website. Uh, we'll be located @community.glomerate.com based on when you're listening to this, uh, that is going to provide a lot of resources in order to kind of bridge that gap and answer those questions, so it could be anything from what is a quality conversion rate with my paid ad acquisition strategy, to why should I wear headphones when I'm recording a podcast. Uh, and I think that over the years, the goal is that this becomes a resource for anybody in the audio industry that's looking to learn more about whatever particular avenue they're trying to pursue, so right off the bat, we're gonna have a number of articles, contributed pieces, uh, think pieces, op-eds, um, we're gonna have a-a weekly newsletter and we're gonna have a weekly podcast surrounding the industry. Um, so people can find that @community.podglomerate.com. [(19:19)] Kristin: That sounds awesome. Thank you for bringing that kind of resource to the industry. I think that's gonna be immensely helpful across the board, regardless of familiarity with, you know, having a podcast or advertising within podcasts. Sounds like there's gonna be something for everybody there. [(19:34)] Jeff: Thank you. Yeah, that's the goal. My fingers crossed. [laughter] [(19:38)] Kristin: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much Jeff for coming on. It was such a pleasure to learn more about the Podglomerate, how you guys help brands, your take on all things audio. I now know that I do not change my kitchen sponges often enough, so I'm going to go look up that subscription service and also I will attempt to try to listen to a true crime podcast while I work and not get freaked [(20:02)] Jeff:Out. I love that so much. Uh, I believe that the company Skura Style, by the way. S-K-U-R-A. [(20:09)] Look at that. There you go. Make sure you use... [(20:11)] A fun little show for this guys. [(20:12)] Promo code, Jeff Umbro the Podglomerate. Thank you so much, Jeff. [(20:18)] Jeff: I love it. Thank you. [(20:20)] Host: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing@veritonic.com. [END]