Audio: On this episode of the Sonic Truth, Jacob Schwartz of Mediahub joins Veritonic, Kristin Charron, to discuss the rise in audio in Omnichannel marketing mixes, the impact that the increased adoption is having on other channels, trends that Mediahub is seeing in the utilization of audio and more. Thank you for joining us and welcome back to the Sonic Truth. 

Kristin Charron: Welcome back to the Sonic Truth. Today I am joined by Jacob Schwartz, Associate Media Director, National Audio Investments from Mediahub. Hi, Jacob.

Jacob Schwartz: How are you doing? Thanks for having me.

Kristin: Well, thank you. I know, thank you for being on. It's such a pleasure to finally connect.

Jacob: Yes, absolutely.

Kristin: As Associate Media Director at Mediahub, just for any of our listeners that are unfamiliar with Medicahub and what you guys do, what do you do in that role?

Jacob: Yeah, my role is to basically oversee national audio for Mediahub. Especially, the set ranges every from everything from good old tried and true terrestrial radio, to streaming audio and podcasting. We have a bunch of accounts that even if my team doesn't directly do the work on, we're at least the point person and subject matter experts for the agency.

Kristin: Excellent. Obviously, Mediahub is such a cheerleader of audio as an effective marketing vehicle. What about it in particular, do you feel makes it a great compliment to other channels?

Jacob: Well, I think it's a great reach extender, right? Especially, if you would look at something like terrestrial radio, streaming audio, and podcasting, right? A lot of times, you're reaching people that you might not necessarily be able to reach in other places. You're also reaching people in a truly leaned-in environment, especially when we look at podcasts, right? It's content that people are seeking out. It's content people are leaning into and you're aligning when we're talking about podcasts specifically, you're aligning with voices people trust. If you're talking about streaming audio, you're aligning with the music that people love, and if you're talking about radio, you're aligning with those personalities and those radio stations that people have been listening to forever while they're in their cars, while they're commuting home, while they're driving to work, and things like that. I think from a creative perspective, we've seen over the last couple of years, screen fatigue is a real thing. So to be able to convey a message without the need for elaborate visuals and video and things like that, and just be able to convey a message just with audio. I think it wants to welcome a break from consumers, right? Because people are taking time away from TV, time away from their computers, and their phones because they're just watching so much content at once. But it still allows you to convey a message in a meaningful way.

Kristin: Absolutely. In terms of it being a reach extender, do you feel as though brands that are getting into audio and podcasting for the first time are really doing their homework to understand their target audience and where they're likely to be listening so that they can make sure that which they're producing is really a part of that experience as a whole?

Jacob: Yeah, I think so. We're in an interesting time where audio regardless of which bucket we look at, right? Radio streaming, podcasting, whatever it is, I think we're entering a time where a lot of brands are starting to say, "All right, it's no longer would be nice to have, or maybe we'll add it later." It's becoming more a part of the conversation of how much budget should we be dedicating to audio. But it's interestingly, it's not moving as quickly as the adoption, the consumer adoption would indicate. Right? There's a variety of factors that we could talk about why that might be. We'd honestly probably be here all day about it. But it's definitely something that's slowly moving into the category of, we definitely think that this needs to be a part of our media mix. Yeah, I think there's more data than ever, every time we have our teams put together audience data, one of the things we always ask is, are they listening to audio? But not only are they listening? What are they listening to? Are they listening to the radio? If yes, what on the radio are they listening to? Are they listening to streaming audio? Great. What apps are they using? Are they listening to podcasts? Yes. Great. What kinds of podcasts are they listening to? It really allows us to kind of dig deep and say, "How can we align with our audience, wherever they might be listening."

Kristin: In terms of those that are taking more of a baby-step approach to incorporating audio into their strategy, are you seeing any trends in terms of where they're starting? So are they kind of starting with radio, or have they been in radio then they're embracing streaming audio and podcasting? Are they starting with a sonic logo to see how well that resonates and how that increases their reach and engagement, and then branching out from there? Are there any particular trends that you're seeing?

Jacob: Yeah, it's interesting. Up until probably about 4 or 5 years ago, I think the toe in the water, so to speak was definitely radio, right? Let's see what radio does for us. Let's see how many impressions we can get. Let's see what our end results are. Then I think we saw kind of a shift to streaming, right? Especially, when we look at the music streaming of the world. All right, maybe our toe in the water becomes digital audio, streaming audio, it's easier to measure, it's targetable, and we can hone in on where we want to run. I would say over the last 2 or 3 years that paradigm has started to shift more towards podcasting, where brands for forays into the audio space. Yeah, we're talking about streaming and radio still, and why those are still important. But they want to know more and more about podcasting. All right, How do we incorporate podcasting into our existing media mix? I will say one of the things we try to stress at home is, for every client, it doesn't matter how much money you're spending in the audio space, but every client and every brand needs a well-rounded audio strategy. So when we look at those three buckets, right? Radio streaming and podcasting, those lines are really starting to blur off like, what those are, 20% of all AM-FM radio listenership is done via a stream, right? So, streaming audio isn't just Pandora and Spotify anymore, but now we have to start looking at AM-FM radio streaming, right? Listening to you, people listening to those radio streams online when they're at work, or when they're at home.

Kristin: Right.

Jacob: Wherever they might be listening. Even radio shows are starting to take their talk shows and put them out in podcast formats. So even if I'll use Elvis Durant because I'm based in New York, I'll use Elvis Duran as an example. If people love Elvis Duran, but they don't have the time to listen to the show in the morning, they can still go back after the fact and listen to the show whenever they want, as in podcast form. We see it going the other way too, right? Where we see a lot of the streaming audio partners starting to get into podcasts, right? Develop their own podcasts and we're starting to really see this kind of blurring between the different buckets of audio. We look at it, to me it doesn't really matter where you dip your toe in because there's no real bad place to start. But at the end of the day, we want all of our clients and our brands to get to a point where they're comfortable saying, "We want audio, but when we say we want audio, we want everything, we want the radio because it's efficient and it reaches a whole lot of people. We want the streaming audio because we know people are listening to online audio content, right? Online audio listenership is at the highest it's ever been. But we also want the podcast because it's leaned in, it's an engaged audience, it's uncluttered. Frankly, the listenership continues to grow every year, and I think it's like 42% don't hold me to that number, but I think it's like 42% of people are listening to some sort of podcasts on at least a monthly basis. In every projection I've seen, that number is projected to continue to grow.

Kristin: Yeah, absolutely. As brands and creators get more savvy in terms of audio and they start incorporating it more into their overall strategies, are you seeing an increase in the utilization of data and analytics to help inform some of those decisions? So are they thinking about what's the right host to use, or will my audience be engaged in this topic, for instance, as it relates to podcasting?

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the great things to come out in the last two or three years has been kind of this explosion of measurement capabilities within audio and podcasting specifically. Now, we can measure pretty much with probably some exceptions, but most, any KPI that clients have, we can measure against it. I think that's one of the beautiful things about the explosion, so to say of podcasting. Not necessarily just from a brand spend perspective, but really from an audience consumption perspective. It's forced the issue over the last 2 or 3 years of how do we measure this, right? When podcasting started, it was vanity URLs and coupon codes, which works great for direct response brands and brands that are direct-to-consumer brands, but at Mediahub, we don't have a ton of those. Most of our campaigns on podcasts are branding campaigns. So we don't have a discount to offer most of the time to set, tied to a vanity or a coupon code. We have to figure out a different way to measure success and the fact that it's come such a long way, even just within the last 2 to 3 years, is really great because it allows us to say, "Okay, even if we aren't tying some sort of coupon code or vanity or out to the creative, we can still at least measure success." Right? Are people being exposed to ads and then going to our website just to see what's going on? Are we moving the needle on brand awareness and consideration and purchase intent? We can now measure all those things. I think that it's not perfect by any means, right? I don't think there's any perfect measurement solution, but it's come such a long way over, just even the last 3 or 4 years that it's really great to see and it's going to continue to grow.

Kristin: Absolutely, and of the clients that you currently work with, what would you say roughly the percentages between the Host-Read Advertising that you're seeing in podcasting and produced?

Jacob: I think it really depends on the client, to be perfectly honest. We have some clients that are running all Host-Reads. We have some clients that are running all producer reads and taking a more data-driven approach. Then we have clients that are running a mixture of both, so there's really no one size fits all percentage there, or no one size fits all formula. If I knew what that formula was, I would've patented it and sold it, and I'd be worth beyond my [crosstalk].

Kristin: You'd be very rich. Yes.

Jacob: Yeah. I think it's one of those things that it really is very much a trial-and-error approach. I think that's one of the benefits of specifically pixel-based measurement where we can in real-time see performance against certain KPIs like web visits, are we performing? That really allows us to make informed both in campaign optimizations, then post-campaign analysis and prepare for the next campaign. As I said, there's really no one size fits all. I do think the best podcast campaigns are the campaigns that use a mix of both, especially when it comes to how that producer reads or announcer reads or whatever you want to call them are used. But I still think there's still a place in podcasting, and there will always be a place in podcasting for Host-Read and aligning with specific talent and specific creators and specific content and that content's audience. But there's also a whole variety of podcasts out there that it is just impossible to sift through. So I think that's where data-driven and programmatic solutions come into play. Let's take the guesswork out of it, right? Let's not sift through 200 podcasts and try and figure out which ones our audiences are listening to, right? Let's define our audience and to use data to go target them wherever they're listening. Right? That's where I think the announcer reads come into play, we're not necessarily leveraging the talent to do the read, but we're still aligning with content that we know that our audience is leaned into. But we're not just recycling an old radio ad. Right? I think that's one thing we've seen time and time again, right? 

One of the constant things we've seen time and time again is produced ads that sound like they're repurposed radio ads just don't work the same. Because people don't want podcasting to sound like they're listening to the radio. They want the ads that they're served to sound like they're made for a podcast. I think that one of the key things we try and drive home to all of our brands is, all of our publishers have recording capabilities from a creative perspective to leverage it. They know their audiences the best. Even our data-driven partners know and have done thousands of these. They know what success means from a creative perspective. Let's leverage their expertise when it comes to that. We've seen really great results kind of across the board, regardless of what those percentages between Host-Read and announcer-read are.

Kristin: From a data perspective, are you finding that there's a bit of an increasing level of sophistication as it relates to understanding the attribution data actioning on what they're learning from those insights, or is it still a bit, at this point, early stage where it there might not be full trust or full confidence in those numbers?

Jacob: Yeah, I think there's definitely growing confidence. I am very much a champion of measurement consolidation where we can and so one of the things, we always say is we don't want to be measuring something in a silo, right? So even if it's just measuring audio holistically, right? We don't want to be measuring our podcasts in a silo. We don't want to be measuring streaming audio in a silo, right? So anything where we can kind of say, "Hey, we're measuring our entire audio campaign and we're trusting these numbers because directionally we can compare it to everything else, right? We no longer need to rely on each individual partner to provide us with a measurement solution, right? Because if partner A is using measurement partner 1 and partner B using measurement partner 2, and partner C is using measurement partner 3, and across three different publishers, we're using three different measurement providers, right? It's great to evaluate each partner's performance to itself, but doesn't really allow us for a true apples-to-apples comparison. So I think the growth of attribution in the audio space and the willingness of brands to say, "You know what, we want to streamline our measurement process, we want to consolidate our measurement partners and allows us to consolidate that and allows us to really at least, even if it just directionally compares, all of the publishers kind of together within a single campaign." I don't know that we'll ever get to a point where we see numbers and we're 100% sure those are correct. That's across I think, any channel, right? I think it's healthy when we can kind of say, "Hey, what about this, what about that?" Because it also forces measurement partners to make sure their methodology is sound right. Especially as data privacy laws change and the method of collecting user data is constantly changing based on those laws. I don't think it's wrong for there to be a certain level of skepticism. I think a little skepticism is healthy, but I definitely think we're more confident in those numbers now than we were even 4 or 5 years ago.

Kristin: Sure. Within the audio industry, audio as a marketing channel is often really bolstered by the intimacy that it offers and efficiency that it offers and high reach that it offers, especially from a return perspective, as more and more creators and brands incorporate audio into their mix, is it having any impact on the amount that they're still doing in other channels like social or like display?

Jacob: No, I don't think it's having a huge impact. I think part of the reason is the efficiency that audio allows. I'm saying this, I don't have huge, just transparently, I don't always have huge visibility into kind of overall media mixes. So when it comes to comparing audio budgets to other channels. But I think one of the things we've shown over the years when it comes to especially radio and streaming audio, even podcasting to a point is, we can achieve some really efficient CPMs. I think that is beneficial because it doesn't require a huge shift from other channels to make significant gains in incremental reach and things like that. So I'll use the radio as an example, right? Against adults 18 to 49. You can achieve a $3 CPM. What other channel are you getting a $3 CPM? There aren't very many unless you're buying, really broad rotators and really opening up your targeting, so even streaming audio, right? Still really efficient when it comes to CPMs and even podcasting as expensive as the CPMs can get, when you compare to other channels, it's really not that far offline. So it's not like we have to move these huge chunks of dollars from other channels to make an impact in audio. It's subtle shifts where a couple of dollars from this channel, a couple of dollars from that channel, now all of a sudden we've increased our incremental reach and we've made an impact. Maybe drive a few extra conversions and a few extra customers without really significantly impacting the media mix.

Kristin: Sure. And there's also been a lot of talk from a consumption standpoint for podcasts in particular about YouTube and how a growing number of consumers are using YouTube to consume their favorite podcast content. Do you have any theories or thoughts as to why that platform is increasing in popularity and how that might evolve over the next say, six months to a year?

Jacob: Yeah, I think it's funny, I was actually talking to someone about this a couple of weeks ago, but it's really blurred the lines between what's video and what's audio at this point, right? Because the consumer they're going on YouTube and watching the show, right? At the end of the day, it's a podcast. It just happens to be video cameras also recording them, and it happens to be put on YouTube. I think part of the reason is that we have a generation, Gen Z is kind of growing into that 18 to 24-year stage, right? I think as brands continue trying to target the 18 to 34, 18 to 49 demo, right? As a millennial, this pains me to say millennials are starting to age out of that target group and Gen Z is starting to move in, and the media that millennials grew up with is significantly different than the media Gen Z grew up with. So Gen Z, I think is used to being able to go on YouTube whenever they want, type something in, and have a video to watch. I think that's no different here, right? So I'll use Smartlist as a bad example, but Joe Rogan, is the number one podcast, right? He also has a video component when it used to be on YouTube, right? You could just go on YouTube, and consume that podcast. It's the same as listening to his podcast wherever you listen to it.

I think it's going to force adoption from other platforms, and we're already starting to see it, right? Spotify is incorporating video capabilities into its app. So if you watch a Spotify-exclusive podcast, the video component is in the app as well. I still think audio only is going to remain the dominant form of consuming podcasts, mostly because audio is easier to take with you. 

Kristin: Sure. 

Jacob: If our phones are the main source of consumption, it's easier to take an audio file with you than a video file just for pure storage space alone. But I think video's always going to have a place from a production perspective, you can have the greatest visuals in the world and camera work could be exquisite if the audio stinks and the content stinks, right? At the end of the day, you have a bad podcast.

Kristin: Right. 

Jacob: It doesn't matter how good the video is, if the content isn't good and the audio isn't good, it's not going to be good. So I think one of the things that creators and publishers need to keep in mind is, as much as video is becoming a huge part of podcasting, audio still remains the foundation of what makes good podcasts.

Kristin: Sure. No, that makes sense. It'll be interesting, I think there's still a lot of discussion and figuring out that needs to be had in terms of how that's thought about and what defines a podcast. It'll be really interesting to see how that shakes out, for sure.

Jacob: I think from a measurement perspective too, right? 

Kristin: Yeah.

Jacob: There are implied workarounds, I think it would be great if we were able to measure the impact YouTube has on performance, does it provide better performance than the audio piece? Does audio perform better? Right? I think that would be great to know. I think publishers would want to know that too because at the end of the day, yeah, like it's great if they get the viewers, but they also want to know, is it working for their brands? I think it would benefit everybody if measurement will eventually be expanded to the video piece. Which I think it will eventually. It's just I think it's just a matter of time.

Kristin: Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. I have a couple of remaining questions, but they are very light and unrelated.

Jacob: My kind of questions hit me with it.

Kristin: Is there anything else that you wanted to chat about or plug or promote on the Mediahub side before we move into those?

Jacob: None that I can think of off the top of my head. Thank you though. 

Kristin: Okay. Absolutely. Well, all right, let me start with, let's see if you could choose one person to voice your audio memoir, who would you choose and why?

Jacob: I'd be the best voice in the business. Morgan Freeman. I think he's just like, that's just the best voice I've ever heard. So, yeah, Morgan Freeman.

Kristin: Right. Yeah. Surprisingly, I've asked this question a couple of times and I don't think I've received that answer yet, but I'm with you on that. It's the obvious choice. Okay, second question. If you could wake up tomorrow and play one instrument better than anyone else in the world, what would it be?

Jacob: Oh, that's a tough one. My initial answer is the drums. 

Kristin: Okay. 

Jacob: Just because I love the drums, but I'd also love to like, be an expert in the most random specialized instrument there is because if anyone ever needs that instrument, they have to call me. I think of a lute, who plays a lute anymore? Now, no one that I know of, but someone eventually is going to need a lute player. I could be that guy. So yeah, it would be one of those two.

Kristin: Absolutely. Okay. Third and final question. 

Jacob: Perfect. 

Kristin: If you could pick one podcast host to be your next-door neighbor, who would you choose?

Jacob: Oh man. That's hard. One podcast host is to be my next-door neighbor. Okay. I need a clarifying question. I live in New York City, so I live in a small apartment. Are they also living in a small apartment? Are we assuming we all have houses in the suburbs?

Kristin: Assume houses in the suburbs. 

Jacob: Houses in the suburbs. 

Kristin: Because you really like this person, you can invite them over.

Jacob: Yes, that's better.

Kristin: Have a beer on the porch, whatever it is, yeah. 

Jacob: I would say, I would want to live next to the smart list guys, so like all three of them.

Kristin: That's my choice as well. 

Jacob: Yeah. Perfect. 

Kristin: Wouldn't it be so fun?

Jacob: Yeah. I think it'd be a party every time they came over. 

Kristin: Yes. 

Jacob: They have famous friends. I could be like, "Oh, just invite whoever your mystery guest is, have your podcast, and just bring them over after we'll cook burgers and stuff." Then I can meet famous people without actually having to be famous.

Kristin: Yes. For some reason, I feel like Sean would always just have like the best snack since his pantry. 

Jacob: Exactly.

Kristin: I don't know why. It's just a thing.

Jacob: Yep. I agree.

Kristin: That's awesome. Well, good choices all around Jacob, and thank you again for coming on today. It is a pleasure to connect and we hope to have you on again soon.

Jacob: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.

Kristin: All right, thank you.

Audio: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing, and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing at veritonic.com.

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