Narrator: On this episode of The Sonic Truth, Will Pearson of iHeartMedia joins Veritonic's Kristin Sharon, to discuss the rise of podcast consumption. What brands can do to successfully harness the intimacy and reach of the channel, the measurability, and innovations that are driving its continued growth, and more. Thank you again for joining us and welcome back to The Sonic Truth.

Kristin: Welcome back to The Sonic Truth. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am thrilled to have Will Pearson, president of iHeartPodcasts here today. Hi, Will, how are you?

Will: Hey, Kristin, it's good to be with you. I'm doing well. How are you?

Kristin: Excellent. I'm doing well. Thank you so much for coming on. It's such a pleasure.

Will: Of course.

Kristin: So president of iHeartPodcast. Prior to that, you were C.O.O of iHeartPodcast Network, and then co-creator and co-host of How Stuff Works. So your experience with podcasts runs deep.

Will: It's fun. It's been a pretty amazing journey seeing what's happened over the past several years. So as you mentioned, I was part of a company called How Stuff Works or sometimes known as Stuff Media that had started some of the earliest podcasts going back almost 15 years ago with shows like Stuff You Should Know and Stuff You Missed in History Class. I actually wasn't at the company at that time, but it was almost more of an experiment just to say How Stuff Works had this incredible collection of great articles and the team started talking about the fact that this new thing called podcasting and maybe audio would be an interesting way to have some fun conversations around what people have been learning from the articles that are on How Stuff Works and little did they know what they would be starting for the first couple of years it was met with really small audiences and over time started to build momentum. And you look at it today with shows like Stuff You Should Know, being one of the biggest shows in the world doing many tens of millions of downloads every single month. It's been pretty remarkable to see.

Kristin: Absolutely. And people are just so much more educated by all the great content that they can take in at will as well. 

Will: Absolutely.

Kristin: That's actually a great segue into my first question. So obviously to your point, podcast consumption has been on the rise for quite some time. What is it about the medium that you think makes it sticky, if you will, from a consumption perspective?

Will: Yeah, and sometimes it's hard to answer the question without using some of those words that may be overused every once in a while, words like intimate, but it is in fact, I think just such a key to what has made podcasting really catch on is there's this relationship with the podcast host and a listener that's truly unique. It's just unlike any other type of medium. When you think about being out on a jog or at home cooking dinner and you first wake up and you might not have even gotten out of bed just yet and you pop in the earbuds and you start listening to your favorite podcast, it's a connection and it's a sort of a feeling that is unlike any other kind of medium. And we've even seen this, there have been more recent studies sort of on the neuroscience of the podcast listening experience and the audios experience in general and how our brains just respond differently to it than they do to social media, than they do to video than they do to tv than they do to almost any other form of media.

And this is something that we've felt at a gut level for quite some time, but it's actually been really interesting to see this backed up by more recent studies to show that there's just something really special about that audio connection. And so, as more and more podcasts have launched and as word of mouth has really helped introduce people to podcasts, and as podcasts are created across a much wider range of subject matter, people discover them, they become sticky, and then they can't wait to tell somebody else about them. And so it takes a few years to get that ball rolling. And then once it does, you start seeing, you start finding yourself in a place where we are now, which is really experiencing the newest mass reach medium. And it's not often that a mass-reach medium gets created.

Kristin: Sure. And as it relates to intimacy, and you said audio and podcasts in particular have a connection, and like no other mediums really do how much of that would you attribute to it being a screenless medium? Like they, before the advent of podcasts? Music is and always has been such a transformative medium. You can hear a song that means something to you or is attached to a memory of yours and it just brings you right back. You can see what you saw in that moment and smell what you smelled in that moment. It's just a wild connection. And I feel like that's really the distinguishing factor here as it relates to comparing it to other mediums, is that there is no screen and you are kind of left to your imagination and your memory, if you will.

Will: A hundred percent. Yeah. It's, really, it's amazing to think about how much it's grown. And I do think that that's a huge part of it. In many ways, our eyes are exhausted. We're overstimulated and we have so many things happening around us with screens and audio does in many ways give us a bit of a break from that. But to your point, that ability to recall certain things because of the audio experience and the thing I mentioned earlier where studies are now starting to back this up, there was this terrific study from ARN, the Australian Radio Network that they were doing and looking at recall metrics and neuroscience metrics, things like engagement and trust and attention. And they were comparing social media platforms like Facebook and Instagram and then of course YouTube and podcasts. And in all four of the categories they were looking at engagement, trust, attention, and recall. Podcasts were far and away the leader when it came to those attention metrics and really connecting with people. You may have seen the same thing recently with the Dentsu study, the terrific agency Dentsu was taking a look at attention metrics and just really trying to understand which form of media best connects and sort of commands the attention of its audience for advertisers to be thinking about. And once again, it wasn't even close, audio outperformed social, other forms of digital; tv. There is just a true ear-to-brain connection that's really powerful when trying to get the attention of a listener.

Kristin: Sure. And if you think about it too, especially as it relates to comparing it to some of the social platforms like Facebook and Instagram, it's also the ability to have that choice, right?

Will: Mm-hmm. 

Kristin: Like with the algorithms, I'm not deciding what I see when I open up Instagram, what pops to the top of my feed, or when I go to explore. And same with Facebook, but if I'm looking for a podcast or engaging with content, sure there are recommendations that come up. But, I'm actively choosing what I'd like to engage with, and of course, it's going to hold my attention. So it's pretty fascinating.

Will: Kristen that it's such a good point and it's something that's often missed when people talk about a video getting a certain number of views on Facebook or on some other form of social media while there may be truly impressive numbers around those things, you're absolutely right that when you think about podcast consumption that's happening because each of those individuals are actively choosing to listen to that specific episode of that specific podcast. It's not a stumble-upon type of medium. And so I do think that's a big part of why it's so powerful, but it's also part of why that audience is so incredibly valuable because these are all audience members that are very intentionally being in the content that they're in.

Kristin: Absolutely. And speaking of audiences, there are so many brands that are leveraging podcasts to reach their target audiences in a meaningful and effective way for all the reasons that we're discussing here. But for the brands that haven't started yet, what do you think the barrier is?

Will: I think part of it is education, is really just making sure that brands and they are coming to it in bigger numbers than they ever have before. When we look at the number of new brands coming into podcasting every single month. And you can look at this through great sources like Magellan third-party sources to understand how many new brands are coming into podcasts for the very first time every single month. And if you look at that every month so far this year as compared to last year, and certainly as compared to 3, 4 years ago you're seeing more brands coming in at a much higher rate than they ever have before. But in terms of those that haven't yet quite made the leap, I think it is a matter of education. I think there are definitely some misconceptions that we as an industry all have to really work together to resolve or to make sure that we sort of debunk various myths.

Things like measurability of performance, of advertising. It is absolutely as measurable of a medium as any other form of digital media or the ability to target certain audiences. You can absolutely target in all the same ways that you can with any other form of digital media. And those are things that really have advanced so much in the past 3 or 4 years. So the brands that are coming on board now, were not in podcasting a few years ago, one because it wasn't quite the same scale that it is now, but two, because at that point, measurability and targetability, were not at the same place that they are today, but as brands learn that and as they dip their toe in the water and they test it, they see the results from that. And it's bringing them in and in much bigger numbers.

Kristin: Sure. And for those that are in it, what recommendations or advice do you have that they can change or do to get even more from the medium? 

Will: It's fun to work with brands that really fully engage in it and really say help us start from the beginning, and in success, we'll continue to evolve what we're doing. And I think brands started to learn many of the lessons that many of the direct response advertisers had learned very early on. The direct-response advertisers really deserve a tremendous amount of credit for building the podcast industry. These are the ones that are your boxed meal companies and your mattresses and so many of these other brands that came into podcasting and truly proved the effectiveness of it because the reason you were hearing these brands over and over and over again was because it was working for them. And what they showed was that if you really engage with a host and you allow this very special and unique experience of the host-read ad to connect with an audience, it's so incredibly effective.

And so for most brands, when we work with them for the first time, we make sure that we get a real sense of who they're looking for, who they're looking to reach, and what their goals are. Is it more of a brand lift type of thing? Is it they actually need to move a certain volume of product? Is it that they need people to sign up for a certain thing? And once we understand that and we understand who they're trying to reach we try to build a campaign together to go after those audiences. And you often start with something relatively straightforward saying, "You know what? Let's test the waters with 30 and 60-second spots that are focused on audiences that you're trying to reach." And then in success there we see this pretty wide spectrum, well, they'll say, "Wow, that was really effective."

"So you know what, now maybe I'll try something just a little bit more custom" and we'll do a custom extended midroll across a wider range of podcasts to really try to get our brand messaging in front of an even broader audience. And then in success there, they may say, "This has been incredible. We want to make sure that we go even deeper into podcasting. Maybe we're ready to start our own podcast." And so we have a team here that's called Ruby Studios, that works with brands looking to make custom podcasts of everybody from a T-Mobile to an Under Armour to an IBM. And the list goes on. Just an incredible roster of brands that we've worked with that have learned that "Okay, now we've dabbled in podcasts and we've tested many things in podcasting, and now we're ready to start a show of our own."

And so to work with a brand like Under Armour that I mentioned before and to say, "Let's tell the incredible stories of some of these athletes that we work with over a series of 12 episodes." And we do this with a wide range of brands and as a sign of the effectiveness of this team at Ruby Studios has something like an 85% to 90% renewal rate after a first season with these brands that have created custom podcasts because they're really engaging with this audience. And our job is to help them strike the right balance of telling great stories and engaging an audience while also communicating a brand message. So we see it as a pretty linear thing. It's test the waters, advance what you're doing, start building on that, and then eventually try to do something that is even more custom for your brand. 

Kristin: And what would you say to advertisers that struggle with the fact that there are so many hosts and so many advertisers that are trying to effectively leverage those hosts and their relationship with audiences as an advertising vehicle? How do they know that they're going to be able to cut through the noise and that it will be effective?

Will: Yeah, I think it takes the work of making sure that you're going to the right partners and the right shows and finding that fit. And that's a big part of our job when a brand comes to us, making sure that we fully understand some of what we talked about before, who the audience they're trying to reach is, and what is their ultimate goal with that audience. And then from there, making sure that we build a plan that connects them to the right hosts that are just for that. So if I've got somebody coming to me with that's a travel-related company, and they're trying to reach a 25 to 39 audience, we really want to think about the right kinds of hosts that are super into adventure travel and that are all about fun and all.

Again, thinking about that sort of spirit of what these brands would be. And we've got such a great roster of shows that we can always find that right combination. And then your goal there is to build a plan that usually is a combo of those shows that are a perfect fit with some portion being audience targeting as well to say, here are 3 or 4 hosts that just scream your brand messaging in terms of their own brand. And then here are audiences that we know are very likely to be interested in what you're trying to sell. So let's also go after those audiences with spots. So it really takes that additional work, but the partner being the publisher in our case, really has to play a big role in helping be the matchmaker and making sure that you're getting set up with just the right hosts.

Kristin: That sounds perfect. I think that the matchmaking aspect and having that assistance is so valuable and huge for brands, especially those that are new and just trying to figure it out and get started in that regard.

Will: Absolutely.

Kristin: So, Will that's actually a good segue into my next question. Do you have any other advice for brands and or their agencies that are still trying to figure out where podcasting fits in the grand scheme of their media mix? And it could be that it's already a part. How should it evolve and grow? In terms of taking a larger piece of that overall pie, do you have any thoughts on that?

Will: I think first they need to step back and even if they're asking the question why, I think why podcasting, it's important to look at the space that it's occupying right now. We've got 120 million Americans that are listening to podcasts every month, almost 90 million every single week. And so again, back to the thing that we were talking about before, you are missing out on the newest mass for each medium if you're not participating in podcasting. And it's not just from a matter of more people coming into podcasting, it's also the time that they're spending. And so when we look at the chart of the amount of time that daily listeners are spending with podcasts 4 or 5 years ago, it was 20 to 30 minutes a day, it's now approaching an hour a day. It's in the low 50s right now in terms of minutes spent every single day, from the average podcast listener.

And so this is becoming a habit. It's becoming something that is very much a part of a consumer's media mix. I think it's something like 31% of media consumption right now is happening in audio and yet it's a much smaller percentage of brands and agencies' media mix right now. And so it's really important for people to understand and brands to understand they're under-investing in audio at this point. And then I think once they get over that hump and understand, "Okay, wait, not only do we have more people coming into podcasting and they're spending much more time in podcasting," and you're seeing the performance of podcasting in terms of the attention metrics that we talked about before, and now I know that you can absolutely target audiences and you can measure against the performance of your campaigns once you get over those humps, that's where it's time to jump in like we were talking before and start testing. And that's why we're seeing the numbers that we're all seeing in terms of numbers of new brands coming into podcasts every single month. It's really fun to watch it happening.

Kristin: Yeah. And 50-plus minutes of their day average goes beyond being a part of their media mix. You're part of the soundtrack of their life, really.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. So you're definitely missing out if you're not reaching people on this. And what was really interesting for us to see was if people are now spending almost an hour a day with podcasts, when are they spending it? And what does that mean they're spending less time doing? And so looking at some of the surveys around this, it was a little surprising to us. So I guess just because we didn't know exactly what the answers would be, but 70% of those that were polled and asked obviously you're spending more time doing one thing, what are you spending less time doing? Seventy percent of them said, "spending less time on social media, or I'm sacrificing some of my social media time in order to listen to podcasts." And about half of them said, "Less time on YouTube than I was in order to make time for podcasts." So it's pretty remarkable seeing it seeing it all come together.

Kristin: So I have to ask because it is such a hot topic, less time on YouTube because they're spending more time listening to podcasts.

Will: Uh huh.

Kristin: I'm sure this is nuanced and it probably didn't go that deep, but are you seeing as well the trend of people that are consuming podcasts on YouTube because they do like that visual accompaniment?

Will: Yeah, and it's interesting. It's not always the visual accompaniment. You have some people who are consuming podcasts just listening to the audio on YouTube. Which is for those of us that are not of Gen Z, and really in my case, not even millennials, it's an interesting behavioral thing because it's so strange for me to imagine people using one medium that's known for visuals and to use it for audio, but either way, you're absolutely right. There are people there. And our goal, here at iHeart, it's a big part of our strategy is to be wherever people want to listen or consume their podcast. And so, we aren't distributing every single one of our podcasts on YouTube because first and foremost, we are an audio company.

That really we're big believers in audio. But for many of our shows and for many of the shows that we're launching, especially if there are well-known video personalities behind them or just well-known individuals, celebrities perform well in that space, we'll be doing more and more in video. So some of our personalities, when you think about a Jay Shetty or a Nikki Glaser, or those that are very comfortable in the video space, or more traditionally in the TV or film space we'll be doing more in YouTube and already are doing more in YouTube. But we haven't gone so far as to say every single podcast that we launch should be distributed on YouTube just because it's not, they don't allow for the ingestion of RSS feeds in the more traditional way which is what makes it so easy for us to give that consistent experience across every single platform where we distribute. So it's been a fun one to figure out how to evolve and figure out how to grow our audience. But any medium, any platform, any partner that is interested in increasing the consumption of podcast listening is one that we're very interested in communicating with.

Kristin: Sure. And we talked earlier about as it related to the ongoing evolution in brands adopting podcasting as an advertising vehicle, the importance of understanding the measurability of the medium and the targeting capabilities. But from a measurability perspective obviously, I am personally invested in this as well, working for Veritonic where we do provide attribution solutions. What do you think, or how do you think that the creative and attribution measurement tools that are available today generally what role are they playing in the adoption of podcasts as an advertising medium? And what evolutions do you think need to continue to take place there in order for that to be something that it's really fueling the growth of the medium? 

Will: Yeah, it's playing a huge role. When we think about partners like you guys or any others that are in the business, really what we want to make sure of is that when a brand is spending and podcasting, they should know what they're getting and they should know what they're getting across any number of metrics or whatever they're trying to solve for or measure for. So whether that's brand awareness or affinity or purchase intent or website visits or retail store traffic, or sales lift on the CPG side, whatever it may be, there are partners who specialize in each of these areas. And we're very open to working across any number of partners. You guys do a fantastic job and sort of your areas of specialty. And so for us, it's also important to work with third parties in doing this because we want that data to be as quality and as trusted as it can possibly be.

And so when a brand comes to us and says "Here's what we want to do, here's what we're looking to measure. How do we do this?" They may come to us with a preferred vendor that they use and we're ready to work with that vendor, or they may come to us and say, "Here's what we're looking to measure what would you suggest?" And that's where in many cases, we can come to partners like you and say, "Here's what we're trying to do, help us make sure that we measure this." And I guess the only other thing I would add is it all evolves over time where brands decide maybe they're looking at one set of metrics right now, but over time they realize they're learning something new from their audience and they may say, "You know what? We really want to make sure that we're able to measure this new factor. How do we do that?" That's when we're able to pull in partners like you guys to say, "How do we do this? How do we continue to allow it to evolve?" So that's the main thing that I think is important is that any of the measurement tools and companies that are out there and the attribution companies that are out there, just making sure that we're all evolving and we're all answering the new questions as they come up. But it's gotten to a really impressive point over the past, I would even say 18 to 24 months. And so I'm excited at it only getting more and more sophisticated over time because if there's one thing we're confident in, it's the ability of podcasts to drive awareness and success for brands that we work with for all the reasons that we've talked about before.

Kristin: Absolutely. And in terms of the measurability of it, obviously, attribution to your point, being able to understand really anything that a client could be interested in measuring, whether it's, hits to a website, cart conversions, all the custom KPIs that can be measured. Are you seeing an increase in interest as it relates to creative measurement as well? Or is the industry not really there yet in terms of they know what they want or need to promote, they know who they would like to reach, who their target audience is, and then there's that extra step of understanding that the creative that they have is optimized for those goals?

Will: Yeah, absolutely. No, that's definitely a part of it, especially from our partners that are fully invested in podcasting that have really jumped in, seen how effective it is whether that's doing at the most basic level AB testing or going more sophisticated than that, and deciding do we want to be trying different messaging to different audiences in different geo-focused areas at different times of the year, and really seeing what is working across those many things. I mean, that's the beauty of digital media is the ability to effectively test and to adjust quickly, see what's working and double down on what's working, and then even within what's working to continue fine-tuning to try to just get better and better and better performance out of that. So no, we absolutely see that across many of our bigger partners that are getting more sophisticated in what they're doing in podcasting. And that's a big part of our role. And a big part of your role is to make sure that we help brands understand how exactly they can do that.

Kristin: Absolutely. And in terms of being comfortable with the data received, would you say that what is provided today from an attribution and measurement perspective in audio generally is enough, is it? As compared to what they're getting from other channels like video and display, is there still education that needs to be had around the understanding and actioning on the data that's provided today generally for audio? 

Will: There's definitely still the need for education in terms of the tools that are available there. The basic message is if you can measure it in digital, you can measure it in podcasting. So all of those performance KPIs that we talked about before that are available in streaming are available in podcasting. And so it is a matter of, to your point, educating and helping brands understand, "Oh, this is how I can make sure that I'm measuring these across a variety of preferred vendors that can help us access and provide that data." And so it is there, I think the bigger piece of it, it's less about the reporting from it and less about, is it available, it's more about educating our brands and our partners on that front to understand how they can tap into that.

Kristin: Sure. Absolutely. Is there anything else that you wanted to leave our listeners with in terms of podcasts, consumption, measurability, anything at all before we move into a bit of out-of-the-box question? 

Will: I think for us it's also understanding the one thing I think we may have left off earlier was you were talking about podcasting as it fits into an overall media mix. As part of that study that I mentioned from ARN before they were looking at audio as a compliment to what's happening in social media. And there was this study done where they were measuring brain activity and ad recall and showing how much more effective social media was after hearing an audio message. So you reach an audience initially with an audio message, and then you reach them with social media. You saw across every single category a huge jump in ad recall for those that received this across everything from banking to telco, to groceries, to government, whatever the categories were, they saw a really big jump. It was about an 83% uplift when the ads are first exposed to somebody in an audio format. So pretty cool to see there. So it's one of those things where once we understand how helpful it can be as part of a broader media mix, I think it becomes a no-brainer for brands over time.

Kristin: Absolutely. I think this has been really great, super educational. Is there any contact information or anything that you want to share for brands that might be interested in learning more about how iHeart can help?

Will: Absolutely. They can reach out to me personally. So I'm just, willpearson@iheartmedia.com would be happy to either help answer any questions or bring in the right team members, depending on the nature of the need. But we're excited for all the opportunities to work with new brands and potential partners.

Kristin: Awesome. Excellent. All right. So now we are going to move into a less informative, but equally interesting conversation with [crosstalk] our rapid-fire sections.

Will: Let's do it.

Kristin: So first question, if you could choose one podcast host to have dinner with, who would it be and where would you go?

Will: So whenever I'm listening to an interview and somebody refuses to pick one, I know it's always so annoying, but you have to keep in mind, I work with so many different podcasts.

Kristin: Fair enough.

Will: And it's hard to pick from our babies, right? But here's what I will say, I love when a podcaster comes to us as a relative unknown, and they develop an audience with us and become celebrities in their own right. And yet there's something about podcasting where podcast superstars don't quite realize what a big deal they are. And so I really love seeing that, and it brings to mind, there are certain people like Dana Schwartz who does a podcast with us called Noble Blood, who's just so fantastic, a podcast called The Psychology of Your Twenties, started by a young woman named Jemma Sbeg, who just started this podcast essentially during early Covid when she was struggling. She lives in Australia. And it became this sort of viral hit and really took off. Or I think about people like Robert Evans, who's created basically a full network now called Cool Zone Media, but was not an unknown, but really not, certainly not a household name in any respect.

And these are people that are all responsible for podcasts that are now seeing millions and millions of downloads every single month. And I love it. So my dream is more, and I try to do this whenever I can, assembling a group of some of my podcast heroes like that, and putting them together in one place and having dinner together and just getting a chance to chat and hear about their experiences. So I'd probably have to pick out a combo, but those that I just named, maybe that's the first dinner party that I'm going to have with those.

Kristin: That would be a fun dinner party if that ever happens. I would love an invite if [crosstalk] you're interested in having guests.

Will: You got it. 

Kristin: That would be fascinating. Okay. Final question. If you could only listen to one song and one song only for the rest of your life, which would you choose?

Will: I tend to go through these periods where I will fall in love with a song, and I do tend to just sort of have it in the mix on repeat a lot. And for me, it's hard to imagine listening to something every day for the rest of your life. I'd be worried that it would be it would get sick of it. But here's what I will say is the song, I love it when you discover a song on an album that feels like you've not heard other people talk about it. And it sort of feels like that gem within an album. And for me, the song that has been there and just repeatedly there is a song on the latest album from Coldplay, which didn't receive necessarily as much critical acclaim as some of their other albums.

But it's a song that's over 10 minutes long. It's the last song on the album. And it's called Caloratura. And it's this, I think this just beautiful song that sort of meanders across the sounds of several different types of artists that kind of goes from a Pink Floyd sound to almost like an Elliot Smith sound, to a handful of other varying sounds all within the same song, but in a way that I think is done is done beautifully. But I've heard a few other people talk about this song. So maybe it's my own musical taste. I'm not necessarily a mega fan of Coldplay or anything. But there was just something about this song the first time I heard it, that really struck me. And so I've probably listened to it more days than not over the past year or 2.

Kristin: Okay. I feel like that's a smart choice between having all those different components to it and being 10 minutes in length even. [crosstalk] It takes up a good amount of it. It's something.

Will: Yes. You get variations. It's almost like you're listening to a few songs in one. So yeah, I think that would be my pick as of right now. Ask me in 2 years and I'll change them up.

Kristin: Yeah, exactly. Well, that wraps us up for today. But thank you again, Will, for coming on and being our guest and sharing all this really informative and insightful information with our listeners. We hope to have you on again soon.

Will: I appreciate it, Kristin. It was nice chatting with you.

Kristin: Likewise. Thank you so much.

Narrator: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing, and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing@veritonic.com.

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