[(0:01)] Voice-over: This week on the Sonic Truth, Veratonic Digital marketing manager, Sabrina Nielsen, sits down with Bob Hunt of Hearts and Science to discuss his team's audio-centric position in the market, how to translate audio measurement into a universal language and growing client confidence in the audio space. We hope you enjoy this episode and welcome again to the Sonic Truth.

[(0:23)] Host: Hello, and welcome back, everybody to the Sonic Truth. I have the pleasure of being joined today by Bob Hunt, senior director of Audio for Hearts and Science. Bob, how you doing today? 

[(0:35)] Bob Hunt: I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me on. It's good-it's good to be here.

[(0:38)] Host: My pleasure. We are elated to have you on the podcast. I cannot wait to dive into all the awesome content that we're gonna cover. 

[(0:44)] Bob: That's great. Let's get into it. 

[(0:45)] Host: I would love to start by unpacking the unique position that your team is in, focusing solely on audio as a digital touchpoint on the lines of video, social, or search.

[(0:55)] Bob: Yeah, so it basically our-our teams... our team started about, uh, in its current form about 2 and a half years ago, where, um, and I've had various digital and strategy roles throughout my career, so maybe it's like unlike some other people in the, uh, radio and audio space. I, um, while I was always very interested in radio, I literally like even just listening to the radio. I was [inaudible] like at night beside my bed, all that stuff. Like I've always been really interested in the space.

You know, in my advertising career I'd always had... I was not really as involved in the space till about it. But a few years ago where I was trying to make a... make a pivot in my career, and I realized, "Well, where do I outside of maybe, you know, live TV sports, you know, where do I spend my time?" And, um, I really realized like, you know, the kind streaming and podcasting space where-where I feel like I'm reached a lot and so I pitch it the company within Hearts and Science, and that, hey, we really need a team that is-that is dedicated to this. 

Um... It was not something that the team that the agency had really been that dedicated to before. I think you see a lot in the major hold coast space, a lot of, um, you know, uh, you know, audio's kind of bought all over the place... 

[(01:56)] Host: [inaudible]

[(01:57)] Bob: And now one thing that we've been really trying to pitch is that, hey, a digital audio in particular is-is very much growing, right? And, um, and as part of that, um, it really needs dedicated support, right? So one thing I always equated to as well is that, say when, um, a lot of biddable media was first getting into the marketplace, say search and social, there are a lot of teams that were combined search and social together, right?

And, um, you know, and I feel like now if you were pitching that as a, as a major business, you would never have the person buying in, you know, AdWords, right? Like let say keep bidding on keywords, the same person who's buying TikTok...

[(02:28)] Host: Right.

[(02:28)] Bob: ...and it's just something that you would ever-you would ever do, right? And so a big thing that we're trying to highlight is that audio at this point is very much a major digital touchpoint on the lines of search, social or video. Um, we see that people actually spend on average more time on their phone on audio apps than they do on social apps, right?

And so, but there's always been a major disconnect in terms of that time spent, right? And-and-and the ads spent. I think when, you know, digital media was first getting started, right? It's like, "Oh, people are spending all this time online, but there's not a lot of spend, so there's, so all the growth is right." And so, so we're kind of in that initial, you know, standpoint very much so. Um, in terms of, in terms of audio, right? And so, um, you know, we've built this team, um, started building there were-there were four of us to start. Um, you know, across, again, our remit is across all things National Trust Trails, um, so not-not local, but all things national. Um, the entire streaming landscape as well as the, uh, as the podcasting landscape.

And, um, we started our... with our team, there were four of us, and now they're 11. So we've had incredible growth. Yeah. Across the board. So, um, not every client at Hearts has scope with our team, although we're always one, we're always trying to, to grow that, that remit, right? It is not necessarily of the muscle memory of, you know, major, you know, hold code teams to have a specific audio team maybe outside of certain things in the radio space, right? But, um, we really lean into the fact that, "Hey, we really, we really know the landscape. And then we also can really connect your audio guys right to your holistic measurement and showcase the power of audio as a major digital touch point.

And, um, you know, the clients who bought in, you know, also in a lot of ways the various digital investment teams, they love us most of all, right? Because there's a lot going on in the audio space, particularly what's going on in podcasting, right? Understanding where this stuff lives, right? And so, um, the fact that they have our-our team to really, you know, to really lean on for those things, that's one less thing that they have to do is, is immense for them as well. So, um, you know, the clients that we have, they-they've really come to-to-to-to know and trust us, which is why we've been able to, to grow the team as much as we have. 

[(04:27)] Host: Most definitely, and kind of to that point with all of the change that's taken place within the audio sphere, kind of over the past year and all that we're kind of seeing in terms of the trajectory of audio in the future. How has that impacted the shaping of your current team? 

[(04:43)] Bob: Um, so I think that we're always-we're always just evolving, right? And so, I mean, I think, you know, one thing that's always really exciting about-about the space is that it is-it is always changing, right? And so, um, you know, one thing we are starting to see maybe a little bit more of right? Is I think, um, there's a reason why... a variety of reasons why there isn't as much, um, spend in the programmatic audio space, right? So we we're really trying to-to understand, understand that landscape. I mean, I think roughly speaking, you know, roughly about, you know, you know, roughly about 20% of all audio and then maybe way-way less in podcasting is- is bought programmatically, right? So...

[(05:20)] Host: Sure.

[(05:20)] Bob: Um, we're really trying to understand that landscape and, and that is there, I think. Um, so, so that's one thing. Another thing that's really important is just from the time we started is what is available from a measurement standpoint, right?

[(05:31)] Host: Obviously [inaudible]

[(05:31)] Bob: It's just radically different than it was even a couple years ago. Obviously, I think there's all this question of, "Oh, you can't really measure audio, and that's really not the case. It's probably audio's probably the one digital channel where you can now measure a lot more today than you could a year ago, right? Like obviously with what's going on with, you know, IDFA and-and everything else going on in the broad, and obviously you potentially cookie loss and everything else, a lot of other channels honestly are living in a world that audio has always lived in. So in some ways we're better prepared for the future than a lot of other the-the rest of the Landscape. 

[(06:03)] Host: Absolutely. And I mean, over here at Veratonic, we're definitely the ultimate audio measurement cheerleaders, so we can...

[(06:08)] Bob: Yes.

[(06:09)] Host: To that [laughs] most definitely. Speaking of audio measurement, how are you and your team building strategies to be able to translate what happens in audio into a client's language for that to be really easily digestible so they can see the true value of audio via data and analytics? 

[(06:27)] Bob: Yeah, so I think that probably every audio... First of all, one, if you're not... you don't have appropriate audio measurement plan, right. You probably shouldn't buy digital audio is this kind of my personal viewpoint. It's maybe not the viewpoint of everyone, but I-I think it's, it's really, really critical and really, really important. And each audio measurement plan should really need to have two phases, right? So the first phase is, um, what we do on a day-to-day basis, right? So there's a lot of lot going on, whether that be the, the brand lift or-or pixel based, um, you know, measurement space, right? And so, which I know see, uh, Veratonic to does a lot in, right? And so among others, so that's obviously on the day to day standpoint, right? So you're making sure that when they're say... you know, weekly or monthly optimization report, there are... you know, there are analytics in the same way, right? That there are with any, anything, you know, broader digital or, or social or search, right? So that's the-the first phase. Um, but then the second phase, which obviously what you're alluding to is, "Okay, what is, um, you know, one thing I'm always looking at, right? Is what do, um, again, like what would get a client excited about growing the pie in terms of audio spin, right?"

[(07:33)] Host: Right.

[(07:33)] Bob: So whether that is, you know, say a marketing mix model, right? Which audio does very well in, um, whether that be a multi-touch attribution, which, um, if you have the right in-app integrations. Also some interesting stuff we're doing in the, uh, in-in the podcast space, um, there are opportunities for that as well, right? So there's definitely, if you, if clients are really big in into that broader modeling, which is becoming more important given everything else happening in the digital landscape, um, that's definitely something that we can-we can really take advantage of, right? Um, or it could be, you know, it could be something else, right? And so, um, you know, one thing I always, you know, try to-try to try to translate to ours is like, well, what gets why is a client, you know, allocating dollars between say, you know, video search, social, outdoor, you know, a-anything, right?

[(08:21)] Host: Right.

[(08:21] Bob: Accordingly, right? And we'll get them excited. I think one challenge that we do face in audio, right? Is the fact that I feel like we almost have to-we almost have a double standard. Um, whereas, you know, I think clients always are gonna have a social budget, right? And so they'll always have that, right? But like, [inaudible] then there are clients who are really believers in audio, right? So it's not, it really is on a, uh, on a client by client basis, but, you know, we always have to make that extra-extra link, right? Because just broadly speaking, right, like what you get out of, say a, you know, campaign manager 360, right? It's just not gonna be that attributed to audio and the fact that audio does not provide that last such conversion, right? But that being said, audio does provide a ton of incrementality. Um, and so making sure that we're bringing on client, you know, that we're talking to clients about that is, is really, really, really critical. So.

[(09:21)] Host: Most definitely, yeah. And to your point, the proof is in the pudding, right? So one piece is that there is so much education that I think still needs to take place within the audio space for people to really have a full comprehensive grasp as to why it's such an integral part of an omni-channel marketing strategy today across the board, across industries, across verticals. And then secondarily, I'm not sure that on a broad scale folks are fully aware of the amount and the depth of data and analysis that we're able to pull from audio apps, so.

[(09:42)] Bob: Yeah. And that's changed a lot too. I mean, even what it has been available over the last year and what is going to be available over the next 12 months is just, it's radically different, right? And, um, you know, but I guess what advantage is because clients are not, um, they're not used to seeing this level of data in audio. So when they do see it, they do get really excited when...

[(10:01)] Host: Absolutely.

[(10:02)] Bob: …the client is really in, right? And so, um, sometimes, you know, we come in and sometimes in a-in a-in a uh, uh, you know, in a broader, you know, reporting presentation or even a media record presentation. Sometimes I-I tell my team, or almost like in a relief picture coming in in the eighth inning, right? We gotta bring that energy, bring that output...

[(10:17)] Host: Right.

[(10:17)] Bob: … for audio right and then like the, uh, the-the clients love it, right? Cause it's not something that they're maybe expecting. They know there's gonna be, us, you know, social reporting. They know there's gonna be broader programmatic display reporting, or maybe they have stuff within, you know, video or search or anything else. It's not gonna be for the clients who aren't as initiated, they're not expecting it, right? So we do provide some- some more of those deeper level of analytics. They-they get really excited because it's truly a-a, you know, an added value for them in some ways. 

[(10:45)] Host: Absolutely. And in this stage of hyper growth, with all of the enhancements that are just continuing to multiply in the audio sphere in audio measurement specifically, how do you feel that that is contributing to larger advertisers increasing their confidence and their spend within the audio space? 

[(11:02)] Bob: Yeah, so, um, I mean, a thing for us is when a client has a new campaign, right? Like making sure that they have audio assets a lot of the time, um, they-they, we don't, they don't have, they don't appropriate like, you know, probably like ha-have those assets, right? 

[(11:19)] Host: Right.

[(11:19)] Bob: And so, um, that's something that we, um, always looking into. So to your point, I think it is, it's- it's really just continuing that, that confidence, right? And so, um, I think the one thing that we also always-always look into is, you know, how can we compete on a apple to apples comparison, right?

[(11:38)] Host: Right.

[(11:38)] Bob: So, um, and so any, anytime we do have the ability to do that, we- we do, we do incredibly well, right? So that's- that's really, um, great for us. Um, I will say sometimes there are challenges though, when you have clients who are used to say broader walled gardens, right? They're used to, "Hey, this is my... this is my reporting with, you know, within social right? Or I'm used to certain level of clicks." It's like a, you know, like a Adobe experience manager or anything, any, anything of that sort." Um, you know, sometimes audio makes to really understand it. You do have to like, think a little bit-think a little bit differently. And so sometimes we-we-we, sometimes we try to challenge the clients a little bit, right? Like, oh, like, well, what, what is working for you in social? What is working for you in programmatic display? You know? And I think they-they appreciate and they don't all at the same time, right? Um, and so, um, but it's something where, you know, but once we get that level of-of comfortability, they-they see that success, right? And so...

[(12:33)] Host: Absolutely.

[(12:33)] Bob: …and it's something where, and maybe it's not something, it can't... it's not gonna happen overnight either, right? Well, these, these transformations that we're talking about are really have been happening over, you know, years, right? So it's not something where, "Hey, we didn't do audio, now we do audio." Right? 

[(12:46)] Host: Right.

[(12:46)] Bob: So I'm like, "Oh, for one part of the business, we'll start doing it," but then, "Hey, another part of the business or another campaign or, you know, brand manager hears about it, well, they wanna do what that other brand manager is doing," right? 

[(12:57)] Host: Right.

[(12:57)] Bob: So, um, the other thing is, I-I do feel like there is, I don't have any statistics to back this up where there's probably an over index in the amount of people who are decision makers in this space who do listen to podcasts, right? Like-like this one.

[(13:09)] Host: Sure.

[(13:09)] Bob: And so they're always asking about this stuff, right? And so, and people are always curious about they just... particularly the measurement in the space, particularly in-in the podcasting, you know, measurement space, because it's something they don't really-they don't really understand. So when, you know, teams like us come in and they do really understand just even just how the stuff like broadly speaking works, you know, they-they really-they really get excited about it because it's not something that they know in the same way they know about say, search, social, or display.

[(013:36)] Host: Absolutely. And I love your comment on building the confidence within the client by kind of turning it back on them and having them think about it in-in a broader way, utilizing some of the channels and resources that they're more familiar with it-it's ultimately giving them that Mr. Miyagi effect to build their confidence, give them the tools that they need to be able to instill some trust in the platform. So that's super interesting. I love that angle and direction to be able to support them in that way. 

[(14:01)] Bob: Yep. But I think also clients are very much right now, they're looking for new channels, right?

[(14:06)] Host: Sure.

[(14:06)] Bob: And so, you know, in a world where in a lot of people's time, you know, watching TV is now spent on say, you know, I know this is changing now, but like in, you know, HBO Max and-and-and Netflix and you know, and Paramount Plus and Peacock, et cetera. So, um, it's a lot of the connected, you know, TV space, right? Which is isn't maybe as ad supported right? As, you know, the regular television.

[(14:31)] Host: Right.

[(14:31)] Bob: Um, and so, you know, that's a big thing. And so, and also given what is happening in the social landscape, right? Where, you know, with changes to-to IDFA, um, they-they might not be able to see that same level of success as they have previously. So I think they're always, you know, clients are definitely looking for new ways to reach people, which creates an opportunity for audio. Now it is happening in audio too. I think one thing we also, I do wanna acknowledge is that the, you know, particularly with what's happened in, um, you know, in, in, you know, post COVID where people are now, they're more open to paying for media, right? 

[(15:04)] Host: Definitely.

[(15:04)] Bob: So it used to be like, "Oh, I would never pay for media, right?" Well, it's like, well, if you pay for Netflix, like you're willing to pay for a Spotify premium, right?

[(15:11)] Host: Right.

[(15:11)] Bob: So definitely something that, you know, we're constantly, you know, that they're aware of. But that also, one-one thing that we try to talk to-to clients about is because of that change in, you know, kind of the paid space, it just lends people to lead them more into podcasting, right? So, um, we also sometimes will have one web of clients who don't do much audio. They're like, well, how do I do it? And they, we can, we do, we work with them, right? But then also they're clients who have a lot of success in streaming audio. Um, it's been really great for them. But then we try to get them into more the podcast landscape and holistically the, you know, obviously the, the podcast rates are more expensive than the streaming rates, right? So sometimes it's harder to get people off streaming when we wanna get them, you know, invested in-in podcasting. But we really do encourage them to do that because you are reaching a whole, you know, a lot of ways, a wholly different audience by-by doing So.

[(15:58)] Host: Absolutely. No, that makes total sense. It's incredibly valuable to be able to really map that out for prospective client or anybody looking to kind of increase their reach across channels. I would love to take this time and actually segue into a couple of our fun rapid fire questions.

[(16:12)] Bob: Let's do it.

[(16:13)] Host: Awesome. If you can remember, what was the very first podcast that you ever listened to? 

[(16:19)] Bob: I think, so I was going back for, I-I think it was Bill Simmons, I'm pretty sure, right? Like, and it's funny, I remember, so I started listening a podcast. This must have been like 2000, I mean, I mean, obviously before 2010, right? 

[(16:31)] Host: Sure.

[(16:31)] Bob: And like, I remember because I would literally be listening on my computer, like there were times where like, I would literally be firing up...

[(16.37)] Host: Yeah.

[(16.37)] Bob: ...my laptop. It was before Apple Podcast even had an app, right? 

[(16:40)] Host: Totally.

[(16:40)] Bob: I'm just like listening on iTunes. Like I'll never even forget, um, you know, there was, it's now almost 10 years ago, like training for a marathon. And even like every-every Saturday morning, I would literally take the Friday night and like upload stuff onto my, you know, my iPod right. As like a-like a running playlist of all these different podcasts, right? And so, um, yeah, so that a variety, some like college football podcasts too. There's even this one podcast I remember first listening to, they don't, it doesn't exist anymore. They would, and at the end of each episode, they break down the new Mad Men episode. I'm like, wow. Like I'm getting a breakdown of TV, which like, now they're like [inaudible] like five episodes.

[(17:16)] Host: Right.

[(17:16)] Bob: Five, you know, they're like five different podcasts breakdown each episode of Andorra. Is this going on right now... 

[(17:22)] Host: Right.

[(17:22)] Bob: …or something like that. right? But that was like, wow, that's like really new and, and exciting. And so, um, yeah, that's kind of what got me, what-what-what-what-what got me into it. So [laughs] um, yeah, it's like I still, it's still listening, you know, like, you know, all the stuff like, uh, 15 years later. So.

[(17:38)] Host: Absolutely. That definitely attests to the crazy growth within the space, which is awesome. Okay. What was the last thing you purchased from a podcast or streaming audio ad? 

[(17:47)] Bob: Yeah, so actually I, I decided to wear, um, the t-shirt. I know we're not on video. Um, for, um... so Homefield apparel is a small, um, apparel company. Basically they're based in, um, in Indiana and they, they sponsor a lot of college football podcasts, which, um, obviously it's college football season right now. [inaudible] I'm actually in a college football keeper fantasy league, which is a little, uh, a little crazy. But, um, they sponsor... they really own a lot-a lot of the major college football podcasts, they are, they sponsor all those. So, yeah. So I, I try to support them and I'm-I'm-I'm wearing, I went to University in Michigan, so I'm wearing a Michigan shirt right now, so.

[(18:19)] Host: Awesome. 

[(18:19)] Bob: Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. But I would support them, but I think that's also an opportunity for it. You talk about clients who are big and small in the space, right? Like, they're not a big company. I'm pretty sure they do it all direct, et cetera.

[(18:30)] Host: Yeah.

[(18:30)] Bob: But for-for certain fans, like people know who they are, right?

[(18:32)] Host: Sure.

[(18:32)] Bob: Because they literally buy like podcast sponsorships. So, you know, people will say, "Oh, what's enough to get into podcasting? Like, how much money do I need? Is it worth it? Or whatever." And I think sometimes...

[(18:41)] Host: Absolutely.

[(18:41)] Bob: …you're used to-you're used to buying in like, um, like, well, if I don't spend like hundreds of thousand dollars on like, on Facebook, like it's not worth it, right? Versus, you know, here like, "Oh, you can really create an ownership position by even being in a few shows within a certain audience if you really want to." 

[(18:57)] Host: Most definitely your true testament sitting right here. Everybody go ahead and hear that. [laughs] um, last one. And this one is my favorite.

[(19:05)] Bob: Yeah.

[(19:05)] Host: If you could be next door neighbors with any one podcast host, who would it be and why? 

[(19:10)] Bob: Yeah. So I don't know if I wanna live next to a podcast host [laughs], I say like, every time, like, cause you... it's so funny with the podcast space, right? And that like, you really feel like you're friends with these people.

[(19:20)] Host: Sure. 

[(19:20)] Bob: Because they like live inside your head, right? If you're listening on like AirPods or various headsets, you know, Bluetooth headset, um, like you're, they, like, you're, you feel like you're friends with these people and you go up to them or, or whatever. And so, um, it's always, I'm like, I don't want... I want them to live far away. It's also funny, I live-I live in Brooklyn and in the Co-op there are actually are a couple people in the Co-op I know of who-who have-have podcasts. So I'm like...

[(19:43)] Host: Oh, nice.

[(19:42)] Bob: Yeah. So I'm already in, I'm in it. Yeah. So it's like, it-it's not-it's not an unknown job here when we're in, when you're in a Brooklyn Co-op, so

[(19:51)] Host: Right. [inaudible] 

[(19:51)] Bob: So, um, yeah, it's kind-kind of crazy, but, uh, I guess this is like, uh, you know, a growing podcast ecosystem, right? [laughs], so, but no, I don't want these people, I don't wanna be the crazy fans, it comes up, you know, they'll probably, that can become like a, you know, a true crime drama, right? 

[(20:09)] Host: [laughs] 

[(20:09)] Bob: No, I don't-I don't want-I don't want-I don't wanna listen, I don't wanna be next to any, any podcast. They-they already live inside my head, right. They don't need to be.

[(20:15)] Host: Fair enough. 

[(20:15)] Bob: They don't need to be, you know, having be asking them to come over or whatever. But, but it's always fun. Yeah. But it's, it's also one you, it's funny hearing what people in the space, right? They always talk about like, "Oh, like the people who are my real fans or the podcast fans, right?" Cause they, you really do feel like you're like friends with them, you know? 

[(20:33)] Host: Yeah.

[(20:33)] Bob: So even though you meet certain people, but, um, then you get disappointed, right? Or whatever. 

[(20:38)] Host: Sure.

[(20:38)] Bob: Uh, you know, but it's, but it is one thing that's, that is really fun about the medium.

[(20:43)] Host: Yeah. There is always that caveat to meeting your hero, but no, absolutely. You do form this instant bond. It's such an intimate space to be able to listen weekly or daily to some of your favorite podcasts. So that's a fair answer. I'll accept it. [laughs].

[(20:55)] Bob: Yeah. Sorry. It may not be the right, you know, [inaudible] like, I don't know if I want, you know, but, uh, um, but you know, it's also one thing that's also really interesting, the space about how, you know, think a lot more shows, they really build into that community aspect, right? And so there are a lot of shows that host their own, like have their own discord, right? And so you can really join in and be part with people, et cetera. And so, um, there's a lot of ways to experience a lot of content in ways there. And also we're, you know, obviously we're-we're recording this where we're... I'm very unsure what's gonna happen to like, the future of Twitter, right? And so, um, you know, this is, you know, the podcast space is just increasingly gonna become a very important way for people to share and share news information. 

[(21:33)] Host: Sure. You're-you are already virtual neighbors with so many podcasts. So.

[(21:36)] Bob: So many, so many. And that's great. I'm good with that. I'm good with that. 

[(21:39)] Host: Exactly.  Exactly. So thank you so incredibly much for joining us on the podcast today. It has been more than a pleasure to have you, and we really hope to have you on again. I really want to say...

[(21:49)] Bob: Sounds good. That's good. Sabrina. I really-really appreciate it. 

[(21:51)] Host: Thank you. All right. Thanks everybody.

[(21:55)] Voice-over: At Veratonic we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing and measurement, visit veratonic.com or contact marketing@veratonic.com.

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