[(00:00)] Speaker 1: This week on the Sonic Truth, [ soft music] Veritonic's digital marketing manager, Sabrina Nielsen, sits down with Idil Cakim of Audacy to discuss their recent collaborative e-book on building winning audio ads, major focal points advertisers may be missing in current audio campaigns, and the facets of audio that are shaping it as one of the most trusted mediums in modern marketing. We hope you enjoy this episode and welcome again to the Sonic Truth. 

[(00:26)] Sabrina: Good morning, everybody and welcome back to the Sonic Truth. Today, I am joined by Idil Cakim, SVP head of Research and Insights at Audacy. We're super excited to have you today. How are you doing this morning, Idil?

[(00:39)] Idil Cakim: I'm doing really good. How are you? 

[(00:41)] Sabrina: Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us on the pod today. And we've been doing a lot of collaborative work over the last couple of weeks from the summit to the e-book that we worked on. So I'm really looking forward to diving into our discussion. 

[(00:53)] Idil: Same here. Happy to be here. 

[(00:55)] Sabrina: Awesome, let's get right to it then and start unpacking. On the note of the e-book that we recently collaborated on, how to build winning audio ads, I would love if you could give our listeners who may not have downloaded that just yet, a brief summary as to the insights they can glean from that resource.

[(01:11)] Idil: Sure. Um, well, we set on that journey, literally a journey, um, to see what the correlations would be between various creative elements and brand KPIs. Now, that's a lot of market ease. Um, improper English [laughter], uh, I would explain it like this. Everybody's after, um, this elusive dream of predicting something creative. And creativity, you know, just happens in a moment if you have the right mindset and you have the right background and, and, and you have the right elements in front of you. But we're all obsessed, I think, uh, as a culture, as a society in figuring out what's gonna be most creative and what's going to go viral. And we often get these questions of, you know, what should the tone or voice in an ad, audio ad especially be? And, um, we found some suggestions, but we didn't find, find many truths out there, and we didn't find any connections between these creative aspects and brand KPIs that truly matter to a brand manager, to a business owner, to an advertiser, um, such as intention to purchase or a recall.

So we went through over 110 ads across radio and podcast platforms across industries and literally coded them across various features, 20 plus aspects, uh, voice tone, male, female, um, presence of dialogue, presence of music, call to action, uh, you name it. We coded it and then we surveyed, uh, 300 plus consumers with those same ads and got their feedback in terms of, um, how they felt about the brands represented in the ads. And the final Herculean task was to connect the dots between these creative features and how people felt about the ads and whether they intended to buy from those brands. And we found some interesting correlations and that's what the book is about.

[(03:13)] Sabrina: Absolutely. And I think what's also so interesting about the ebook is that it's so tangible and it's so clear cut and it's so concise for the breadth of information that, you know, we've collectively obviously really stacked into there. It's super, super digestible, which I think is helpful for anyone who has either been in audio for a long time and is looking to make a larger footprint, or those who haven't started to kind of feel out the waters of audio yet and need a starting place.

[(03:38)] Idil: Absolutely. I think the callouts are, uh, really great. Um, you know, you can basically dive into it and say, what do I need to do to enhance recall, ad recall, brand recall? What do I have to do to drive people meaningfully to a point of purchase to, um, increase their intention, um, to purchase or be part of their considerations? That said, do I have to deploy male, female voice or do I have to rely on a dialogue? Do I have to amp it up on music? Those are the kinds of tactical questions the report answers.

[(04:17)] Sabrina: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, in your personal view, what do you think was the most striking feature that we outlined that maybe advertisers are missing or need to focus on most in their audio campaigns right now? 

[(04:27)] Idil: You know, honestly, it was the, the presence of dialogue and, and what that does to an outcome. Let me explain it a little bit. I had heard from other studies, and I think those studies could be still quite valid given what they looked at and what the context was that female voice sells better to a particular type of audience and male voice communicates better to another type of, um, audience like female voice might do better with auto I had read, um, in another study. Um, you know, reasons explained within that study. And obviously, everything has its own limitations.

[(05:04)] Sabrina: Sure.

[(05:05)] Idil: But, you know, I had that going into it, um, in, in the back of my head. And what we saw was that when people heard a dialogue going back and forth between two voices, two producer voices, it doesn't even have to be a celebrity or, um, an influencer, two producer voices going back and forth. That banter really made them pay more attention, emotionally connect, and also, um, increase recall and intention to take action. 

[(05:34)] Sabrina: Sure.

[(05:35)] Idil: So it was a home run when they witnessed maybe what they were going through in their mind, um, about the pros and cons and as to why they should, you know, pay more attention to the ad and then pay more attention to the product. If that, um, almost played out in their head, uh, they were more likely to connect with the ad.

[(05:54)]  Sabrina: Yeah, and I was gonna say, what do you think that is? I mean, does is, is it a little bit more human to feel like you're joining the conversation rather than having someone talk at you?

[(06:02)] Idil: Yeah. 

[(06:02)] Sabrina: Or that kind of fly-on-the-wall mentality of liking to hear what other people are chatting about?

[(06:07)] Idil: Yeah, exactly. I think so. I mean the, well, the one example that we have in the book is from Hyundai, and I specifically remember the ad [laughter] because it had a bit of a, uh, gender feud, uh, humor in it as well. Um, the male voice was, um, talking about the practical, um, you know, benefit of having an electric vehicle and just how long you could drive in it, um, without having to charge. And, and that's something that's really on consumers' minds.

[(06:40)] Sabrina: Right.

[(06:40)] Idil: And then the female voice was, um, talking a bit more about the extra benefits in addition to, you know, being eco-friendly and safe to drive, going long distance. Um, you could use it almost like a charger at a tailgate party to do your grilling. And, and it was really interesting to see audiences react to it. We did a different type of test with that, um, copy as well where we looked at, um, how immersive it was and how much attention it garnered. And women were, um, spiking up in attention with the female voice and the additional benefits. And men were spiking up when, um, the producer was talking about, um, the driving distance and the practical benefits of, um, having an electric vehicle. So I thought that was interesting. It perhaps played into some gender stereotypes, but it was interesting to see what resonated with different audiences and how it spoke to both sides of the story and to a more comprehensive audience. Yeah, it was more human. It's like questions we all would have in our heads.

[(07:43)] Sabrina: Absolutely. A more inclusive listening experience too to have the dichotomy between two people who are looking at-

[(07:48)] Idil: Definitely.

[(07:48)] Sabrina: ...two aspects of the same thing.

[(07:50)] Idil: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[(07:52)] Sabrina: Super interesting. I love that one as well. Um, kind of at the same time that we went ahead and we launched the ebook, we also collaborated on a webinar where we were kind of further talking about how to build powerful audio ads. And during this webinar, we did open up a participant panel, uh, where we asked folks what part of audio creative that they're the most interested in, just kinda a blanket statement there. And we saw that messaging and script one by an absolute landslide. Did the prevalence of this answer versus the other answers that were sonic branding, music or voice selections surprise you at all?

[(08:25)] Idil: A little bit, to be completely honest. And that's just me, a sample of one beware.

[(8:30)] Sabrina: [laughter] Sure.

[(8:31)]Idil: Um, a little bit [laughter]. It just made me think, I wonder if it's because it's a B2B audience and these are the folks who, um, actually can weigh in on a script and messaging. But, uh, listen, call to action. The way you craft that message is super, super important. I mean, the sound obviously makes you connect emotionally, but what it says truly matters, and it's really art to squeeze in all that key messaging in there with everyday language in a way that resonates. So perhaps they were speaking to the, um, to the business requirement, meeting, art meeting sound, that aspect of it. Perhaps that's what it was. I would've expected Sonic branding to pop up a bit more because we see in many studies is that it is the one area they wanna learn more about. In fact, the article that, um, uh, inside radio published from, um, our study, it, it keeps reappearing. They keep publishing, uh, conversions of it. So I think there's definitely a hunger to learn more about, um, Sonic branding, but yeah, I mean, it's all important. Just, it's a matter how it comes together, I guess.

[(09:43)] Sabrina: Absolutely. And I think that's the beauty kind of, of the ebook we created, for sure, because it intertwines all of these different really, really high-level important factors too and audio experience together and kind of weighs the, all of the different features about each one.

[(09:57)] Idil: Absolutely. Intertwine is a great word. That is the image I have in my head.

[(10:01)] Sabrina: Awesome. I wanna segue just a little bit outside of some of the work we've been doing and get a little bit more broad and just ask, what do you think it is about audio that sets it apart as one of the most trusted mediums in modern marketing landscape today? 

[(10:13)] Idil: Today, oh, gosh. Uh, from a marketing perspective, I think it's been long undervalued, and that's changing. And we have more data than we can ship out about the power of audio. I think the, uh, incredible increase of time spent on audio across the board, radio and podcast and streaming, uh, the advent of technologies related to audio, all of that podcasting increases. All of that is making heads turn toward audio. And between planning, investing, um, people are seeing the way audio performs within the media mix. So I think it's still, you know, something that we have to go over and explain to audiences and educate along the way, but I think, um, things are shifting, and smart investors are realizing that this is something that was long undervalued and it offers something highly effective, um, in a very efficient way.

[(11:16)] Sabrina: Absolutely. And kind of just out of personal interest. On the note of audio education, how much further or how much more breath do you think the general marketer out there in the world needs to understand the ins and outs of why it's so important to add audio to your marketing mix? Because, obviously, to your point today, folks are starting to understand and I don't even think starting to is the right word, but they're really starting to internalize maybe the importance and prevalence that audio is playing in a really, really solid, robust marketing plan today. Do you think that there's more generalized education that needs to go on? Do we need to continue to dive into some of these more nitty-gritty details so that people can see, you know, there, there are really key strains that are going to impact your ability to create an audio ad that performs well?

[(12:03)] Idil: Yeah, and there are definitely myths out there, and it partly comes from personal experience, population shift, generational shifts, and, and our workforce is becoming gentrified and, and more diverse in a great way and everybody's bringing in different types of audio experiences to, uh, their jobs. So how that translates to media planning, um, media, um, investing, I think that is 5%, 10% of the equation. Again, the audio industry, the publishers themselves providing constant flux of insight to allow agencies, advertisers to make informed decisions, that's gonna be always key. And I think we're doing a better job now than we used to, um, relying on a variety of sources and, um, investing in proprietary research like the one, um, that we established together. So I think there's always room for education and, and discovery, I'm gonna say. Not to say that folks out there don't know what they're doing. No, I think they know precisely what they're doing, but then there's always this wonder element, there's always this discovery element. Did you know that audio works across the funnel? Did you know that 74%, that's three-fourths of United States, makes time for audio in their day-to-day lives? Did you know that to be top of mind you need music? Here's proof. Did you know that, um, Sonic branding enhances your brand KPIs by X%? Those are really important things to discuss now that we know everybody's consuming audio and is they're, they, they want audio in their daily lives, whether it's personal or professional.

[(13:49)] Sabrina: Absolutely. Yeah, continuing to lay the cards on the table as to what success looks like in the medium.

[(13:54)] Idil: Yeah, and I think, you know what, Sabrina? I think, I think we're past the point where we just think of audio in the car. Of course, listening to audio, um, in a country where we're so beholden to the time we spend, um, in the car.

[(14:07)] Sabrina: Sure.

[(14:08)] Idil: I mean, a lot of people have long commutes. It's just the way United States is built across roads with cars. Um, but it's not just the car. I would like to think of audio as a mobile medium. Um, it's the one medium that you can take anywhere, everywhere. And I, we're seeing, for instance, when we talk to people about their car experiences that they want integration between home and car, so, and on the road in with their phones. So it's really some, a wonderful medium that's highly pervasive, and I think that's what we're relishing on.

[(14:39)] Sabrina: 100%. I mean, I, I know for myself that when I'm cooking or when I'm cleaning, or even when I'm exercising, I tend now, especially to default to podcasts. It, it's immersive. It makes me feel like I'm doing something productive with my time. I'm learning something new or I'm getting additional information about something that I'm interested in. So, uh, I think that, uh, Patel, Patel actually, I heard at our summit said it best, that it feels like a, it feels like a better use of time than, you know, sitting on your couch and watching TV. Something about the media makes you feel more productive or in the know or building connections with the podcast hosts and the podcast guests that you like most. 

[(15:17)] Idil: Absolutely.

[(15:18)] Sabrina: So it's definitely interesting. Yeah, [laughter].

[(15:20)] Idil: Yeah. No, I agree with her. And in fact, it's funny, you, you, you said use, you guys both use the word productive and that's something that came up in an ethnography we did with where we asked people, one of the questions we posed them was, " Can you imagine a day without audio?" And people were gasping for air, like, ugh, I can't. I would not be as productive. I would not-

[(15:40)] Sabrina: Absolutely.

[(15:41)] Idil: ...enjoy things as much. And they kind of knew that, you know, audio was good for them because that's, um, how they get their information and get other things done that they need to while paying attention. And then some other media of TV came up a lot, um, in the conversation was like, oh, I know, I, I, I watch it, but it's so bad for me. Those were the kinds of [laughter] comments that we would get. I mean, I'm just sharing from this anecdotal, um, study that we did. But, uh, it's exactly what you said. It makes people productive and feel productive. And there's a benefit to an advertiser in that sentiment. When you're leaning forward, when you're feeling good, when you're product, feeling productive, when you're keen on picking up on facts, you're gonna be more tuned into their messages. You're gonna be more than likely to take action. There's that in audio.

[(16:31)] Sabrina: 100%. And I think also from the advertiser or from the marketer's perspective, audio measurement technology is also changing the face of how you think about audio, how we spend in audio. Uh, what do you think about that shift now that audio measurement technology is such a prevalent piece of the puzzle when you're thinking about investing in audio? How is that changing the game of audio advertising at large?

[(16:55)] Idil: Big time. If you can measure it, you can ask money for it. You can show proof that it works. You can, um, guide, uh, not only to ask for money but also to guide our clients as to what works, how it works. Um, tweak plans, make them more efficient, effective. Um, I think, well, you're asking a researcher, so I'm biased. Of course, I'm gonna say, yay, measurement. But, but isn't it nice to see numbers against what we are pontificating about? Um, and now we have all these incredible, um, ways of getting into the details. And the, this is something that [inaudible], I know, uh, invest in as well. The advent of artificial intelligence in measurement is I think something we all have to keep an eye on because if there's a gap now, maybe we can fill it with artificial intelligence, maybe we can rely on more modeling. There's variety in thinking. There's variety in media consumption, and our measurement plans should match that. 

[(17:54)] Sabrina: Amazing. I would love to shift into a couple of just fun rapid-fire questions if you're in.

[(18:00)] Idil: All right.

[(18:01)] Sabrina: Awesome. I would love to know if you have an all-time favorite podcast, and if so, what is it?

[(18:07)] Idil: I just discovered this, uh, podcast as I was looking up something on our website. And then it may, it was such a humbling experience. Everything Will Be Okay is the title of the podcast. Yeah, and it's by a journalist, um, Dana Perino. And she, uh, it's not someone I would run into given my other media choices. Um, but, um, I, I just love her guests and her attitude, and she brings on these, um, incredible people who have overcome so much, um, in their lifetime or more recent experiences. They had life-altering experiences and if you just, and it's done properly with a journalistic, um, approach. And, uh, it just keeps the rhythm going when she's interviewing. And it just, it's a humbling experience too, and an inspiring, uh, set of stories. When you hear these, uh, you forget about your daily troubles and you learn so much also.

[(19:06)] Sabrina: I love that. I'll definitely check that one out, or

[(19:09)] Idil: Or at least that's the effect it had on me. [laughter] [inaudible] with you.

[(19:12)] Sabrina: It sounds, it sounds like it will. I'll definitely keep you in the loop once I give that one a listen. Kind of in the same vein, if you could be a guest on any podcast, the ones that you've listed or otherwise, which would you choose and why?

[(19:24)] Idil: Um, well, Dana's guests have gone through a lot, so I don't wanna go there [laughter]. Um, I don't wanna go there. I think I would do, um, I would do something on like 80s music and dance or I would, something I, I miss a lot or, um, something around again, parenting. Um, and there's this, uh, amazing, um, uh, amazing, um, podcast that I also follow called Tilt Parenting. Um, and she talks a lot about, um, you know, the, the trials and difficulties, but then the, also the, the beautiful moments in parenting.

[(20:06)] Sabrina: Sure.

[(20:07)] Idil: Um, parenting special needs children, um, who may be also gifted. So I would love one day if I have done enough research and enough accumulation of knowledge in that domain, I would love to be her guest.

[(20:20)] Sabrina: That is incredible. And of course, I'm omitting the Sonic Truth from this question because you're already here and we know that was your number one answer [laughter].

[(20:26)] Idil: Yeah, [laughter]. Of course.

[(20:32)] Sabrina: Okay, last but not least, and this was a fun one when I actually had to really rack my brain on so that I could ask it myself first, but what key details can you remember from the most recent podcast ad that you've heard?

[(20:45)] Idil: Oh my gosh. I was just talking about this with someone over the weekend. 

[(20:47)] Sabrina: Yes.

[(20:48)] Idil: I remember a repetition of promos, uh, and I'll tell you what it was. It was called Hoop, um, the, the like that was the code you needed to enter. And then, um, and it was around March Madness. Uh, we were trying to listen to some basketball games again with my son and then the promo came up, and, um, the speaker was trying to get people to sign up for something and constantly repeated hoop, hoop. Um, so I remember that. So repetition pays off, uh, disclaimers work, uh, promo codes work, [laughter]. I guess it's, it's, the same way you don't ask a researcher to take a survey because they will second guess why the questions were written that way.

[(21:27)] Sabrina: Sure. Sure.

[(21:29)] Idil: When you work in audio, you end up dissecting the ad that you're hearing. So I was like, oh, they really work hard on that promo. Even though, um, you know, it's something small, they're repeating it and it's really driving-

[(21:41)] Sabrina: Absolutely. 

[(21:41)] Idil: ...the message home. So I was thinking of that.

[(21:45)] Sabrina: Absolutely. Yeah, sometimes I'll test myself as well, but I'm listening to some of my favorite podcasts. I'm like, okay. I'm gonna really tune into the couple of advertisements that I hear throughout my listening experience and then see what I can recall later [laughter], just for fun to test things out. And it's so interesting to see how things resonate, particularly if I'm listening with a friend or a family member, or my husband. And then I like to test them too on what they remember and I'm like, okay.

[(22:05)] Idil: It's different, right?

[(22:06)] Sabrina: Yeah.

[(22:07)] Idil: It's different. Yeah, it depends on where you're coming from, what the context is. So much goes into it.

[(22:13)] Sabrina: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Idil, thank you so incredibly much for joining us today. 

[(22:18)] Idil: Of course.

[(22:18)] Sabrina: It is always a pleasure for me specifically to be able to pick your brilliant brain and talk all things audio. So we hope to have you back on the pod here real soon.

[(22:26)] Idil: Okay, thank you very much for having me.

[(22:29)] Sabrina: Thank you.

[(22:31)] AVR: [soft music] At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing, and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing@veritonic.com. And in case you missed it, download our joint ebook with Audacy by visiting the link in the episode description.

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