[(0:01)] Narrator: In this episode of The Sonic Truth, founder and CEO of AMP, Michele Arnese joins Veritonic's Kristin Charron, to discuss sonic DNA for brands, what it is, how it's created, and why it's an indispensable marketing vehicle for brands of all sizes. Thank you for listening, and welcome back to The Sonic Truth.

[(0:21)] Kristin Charron: Welcome back to The Sonic Truth. Thanks so much for tuning in today. I am delighted to be joined by Michele Arnese, the founder and global CEO at AMP. Welcome, Michele.

[(0:32)] Michele Arnese: Thank you, Kristin. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[(0:35)] Kristin: Of course. I'm so excited we're finally able to connect.

[(0:38)] Michele: [chuckles].

[(0:39)] Kristin: I've been looking forward to this. Um, you guys are, you know, we hear about you constantly. We love working with you and just curious to know, you know, for an update really on everything you have going on and to hear the latest and greatest coming out of, uh, what you guys are working on.

[(0:56)] Michele: I mean, the-the love is also on our side, [laughs]. Um, we are-yes, we are working a lot currently, the year started with a lot of projects, uh, that, um, you know, are going on in terms of holistic sonic identities. So there are many teams involved. We are also planning to do some research in these projects, uh, a lot in the US. Um, there is one thing that will happen in the next ten days. Um, our first, um, super bowl, um, sonic identity will be launched with Avocados From Mexico. And, uh, so we are very, very, uh, you know, happy and-and proud to-to have been working on-on this such an, an important moment for the brand. And, uh, yeah, the entire teams are very happy about this collaboration with Avocados. It's an iconic brand that, uh, uses already a jingle. We expanded this jingle to-, uh, to cover more flexibility for the brand to an entire Sonic DNA.

[(1:55)] Kristin: That's actually a great segue into my first question, and perhaps you can explain it in the context of Avocados, but can you tell us for listeners that might be less familiar with it, more about the concept of sonic DNA, what it is and why brands should embrace it?

[(2:11)] Michele: Uh, sure. So the concept is not new. Um, the-the sonic DNA concept, we invented this concept many, many years ago. We patented also, we trademarked also the-the word Sonic DNA we-because we strongly believe that after the-the period where, you know, brands started using sonic logos, uh, with the very first example of Intel and then T-Mobile, et cetera, the, um, digital transformation of-of-of-of brands just, uh, you know, demanded more-, uh, a more flexible approach to sonic. And this is the reason why we invented this-, um, this concept of sonic DNA, which is basically the core, the translation of, uh, brand identity into sonic, but not with just a single more short melody or like a jingle. It's more translated into a set of ingredients that can be musical ingredients that can be used and combined together to create new sonic assets throughout the entire brand ecosystem and all touchpoints.

So if you think about the example that we, uh, always use to explain it like James Bond, James Bond is, um, really, uh, an example of longevity. It's sonic longevity, uh, because it's not based on one single melody, it's based on different musical ingredients that make the sonic DNA of James Bond. That's why it works across different, you know, genres and styles. Uh, it, uh, has been interpreted by different artists, and it works throughout the site. Geist, embracing always new-, you know, new styles and new trends. And, uh, if you compare the different, uh, uh, bond songs, and if you go back to Shirley Bassey, and if you go, you know, in, uh, 2012, I think, uh, with, um, Skyfall from Adele, they, you close your eyes, you recognize James Bond, but basically, it's about two very different compositions. And if you consider the fact that Adele, she, uh, uh, doesn't even use the main melody of James Bond, but other ingredients that make the brand recognizable acoustically, this is the power of the sonic DNA, it's more, um, bridging, uh, the brand recognition part with flexibility.

[(4:26)] Kristin: That's it. It's like a consistent feel, if you will, across...

[(4:30)] Michele: Exactly.

[(4:31)] Kristin: Brand sounds.

[(4:31)] Michele: Across very different. Exactly. Exactly. And you can take it, you can share it with artists, you can create things out of it. It's like, um, uh, really something that-that stays for the brand but can be always adopted and changed.

[(4:47)] Kristin: And are there particular best practices that brands should keep in mind when they're thinking about the sonic DNA?

[(4:54)] Michele: Best practices? [laughs] Yes. I-I-I-I think in general, you know, we follow, um, attempt with-we follow a very clear design-oriented process. We don't want to have the approach like there is a black box and then some magic happens, and this is your sound, uh, dear brand [laughs]. We-we work with a-a process that can be used to work together with other stakeholders like, um, um, design agencies, advertising agencies, and also with the different brand departments, right? So our best practices to-is to have a design-oriented process that starts from the translation of the brand into what we call sonic principles, like the dos and the don'ts of the sound for the brand. And then we take the dos and the don'ts, and from there we create different, uh, sonic DNA, um, approaches, uh, that normally get validated, uh, through, uh, testing, market research and, you know, uh, evaluation, uh, or different types of evaluation until we have the very final sonic DNA.

This is like the design system if you want, that you use after that to create whatever assets you need. So we start creating a sonic logo after we have a sonic DNA in place because then the question when you start creating a sonic logo where the question about which melody we should use is not left by chance but is some of the melodies you have in your sonic DNA as a brand. So you are starting creating the connection between the different touchpoints of a brand if you go back always and take ingredients from the same-same Sonic DNA. So we recommend to follow this very clear process, let's do the basics. Let's create, uh, the-the sonic DNA of the brand first, and then from there you can start the journey through different sonic assets that, um, might be needed, uh, uh, by the brand in different touchpoints, in different situations, different campaigns, always adapting and changing.

[(6:59)] Kristin: That's fascinating. During the evaluation process, are there particular analytics, data, tools that you use to make sure that everything is fully optimized and that it's achieving the sound of the brand?

[(7:16)] Michele: Um, yes, we do. Um, I mean, what we have seen in the last couple of years, there is a request also to make sound measurable. I mean, who I am talking to, right? [laughs]. But, um, th-the-the-the thing is, uh, that the-the measurements are not taking the decision. They are just helping the decisional process, uh, when it comes to approval, for example, for a sonic DNA or when it comes to verification that a certain sonic asset is still on brand. So we use different-, um, different, uh, techniques of-of measurement depending on the different stages of-of the process. Uh, we use for example, um, the predictive AI audio testing, um, in an early phase of the-of the process because we don't want to, uh, waste resources for market research if we are still exploring sonic-sonic assets at a very, very high level, right?

So when we then narrow down that, uh, number of sonic assets, or we rework the sonic assets based on the, uh, first predictive, uh, measurements, then we go, for example, into a real market research, could be, uh, a traditional market research, could be an emotional-emotion based market research, like you do at Veritonic, could be, um, an, um, a neuroscience also, we did it in the past sometimes to-to have a different approach to measurements when it comes to the reactions that people have, uh, for certain sounds, especially in the, uh, user, uh, experience, right? Then we go through the entire process having also always data on in our pockets that-um, that help us and then help our clients and also help our clients into, uh, the process of internal alignment. You know, how complex can be, you know, to talk about sound internally in a company when it comes to leadership alignments, et cetera...

[(9:16)] Kristin: Right.

[(9:17)] Michele: ...if you're not a sonic expert.

[(9:18)] Kristin: It's very subjective.

[(9:19)] Michele: Exactly. So you need this-this, uh, um, pockets full of data in the right moment with the right data. And what we also did, um, in the-in the past years and, uh, we are about to launch the entire platform, we created, um, um, a sonic data platform, call it Sonic Hub that helps brand to-, um, to work with Sonic throughout the entire, uh, life cycle. So we-, uh, we have the, uh, measurement of sonic assets in the earlier stage, but we have also a tool called it, uh, Sonic Space with-, um, and-and creation station that allows brands to create music, uh, with the help of AI adapting automatically the music to videos, for example, and also getting the music infused by different styles and moods. So having the AI helping to rearrange the music they already have for a different tonality for a different feeling.

[(10:16)] Kristin: That's really cool. So it's a bit of a self-serve model, if you will.

[(10:20)] Michele: Correct, correct. And-and you can, of course, support all stages of the process. We have also a text to speech technology within the creation station, so you can add voiceover automatically while the AI is arranging your music. So you have, with a couple of clicks you can create, um, a video with music that is on brand and is also recognizable because it transports the ingredients from the sonic DNA of the brand and also can be measured already from the creation. And, uh...

[(10:51)] Kristin: Wow.

[(10:52)] Michele: It, it-we don't want-, you know, we-we strongly believe that AI is changed in the way we work in the creative, um, you know, landscape, especially in sonic and sound. We don't believe that-that AI will, uh, you know, replace, um, the work we do with-with, uh, our, um, artists, with our teams and the production. But AI is a great, uh, help, uh, when it comes to, um, effectiveness, for example, and-, uh, and the, um, repetition and, uh, measurement of what we do. So the combination of these two things, the creative approach and AI supporting throughout the process is what we believe makes a good measurement and innovative process for sonic.

[(11:33)] Kristin: A question on that. You have a sonic DNA and it all kind of builds off of the initial sound, if you will that you create that represents a brand. So from a data perspective, does that initial data that you know, that this sound is an accurate representation of the brand and what it means and how it feels to its target audience, does that carry all the way through? Or are you testing specific assets for spec-a specific use on, say, a specific channel all the way down the line? Or is that initial data enough to know that whatever you spin up from it is-is on brand and-and will resonate?

[(12:12)] Michele: Ve-very good question, Kristin. So, um, and basically you have the initial data because the sonic DNA is like a naked body, right? So that you can dress depending on different styles and different requirements of campaigns. So the initial data gives you, um, the-the level of brand fit for the sonic DNA because you defined before, what does make the brand the sound of this brand?

[(12:36)] Kristin: Sure.

[(12:37)] Michele: So the dos and the don't, so you have, uh, the initial data are very important because they are carried on also after when you test a single campaign. So some of these data should reappear in execution testing, for example. So, um, and-and some of this data will change a little bit in each execution because you might want to have a campaign which is more inspired by certain sentiments instead of others. So you know what stays and you know what change, but you-if you don't measure that at the beginning, you don't have any constant that you can take as a, you know, the-the-the-the-the-the present representation of the brand throughout your executions in the future.

[(13:21)] Kristin: And if a brand updates or enhances their visual identity, does that have any impact on the sonic identity?

[(13:29)] Michele: Um, it has, i-impact on the sonic identity, but more on the executional part, of course, if-if a brand changes completely the positioning, right? So if there is a major shift in the way the brand defines itself as a-as a brand, yes. But if it's about changing the visuals or changing, for example, the motion identity or changing some-some strategy of execution, this-, um, the DNA n gives exactly the flexibility, uh, uh, we were talking about. So you can take the same DNA n and you can take the DNA to the next level more-, um, more consistent with your new visuals, but is just, you know, the same body, dressed in a different way.

[(14:12)] Kristin: Got it. Just thinking through, you know, if I were a brand and I was interested in getting a sonic identity, establishing my sonic identity, is there-can any brand do it or is there a threshold like, you have to be this big, you have to have this much reach, you have to be, you know, from a marketing perspective, exe-executing across these many channels, um, or, or is it really something that any brand can do?

[(14:37)] Michele: Um, this is something that any brand should do because, um, uh, you know, the wrong sonic identity can destroy your brand. Depends, uh, at the end on the, uh, moment of, uh, the truth when you-when you, uh, are in touch with your clients, with your con-consumers. So depends if you have the opportunity to strengthen these moments, um, of truth with-with the right sound, you are just, um, empowering your message. Doesn't matter if this happens only on one specific, you know, touchpoint or situation, or this happens on a global scale with tons of, for example, videos on social, always on content across different channels, et cetera. I think it's just a matter of implementation, um, for the sites. But the approach to have a sound, if a brand, uh, is sound relevant, right, in the moment of truth that the brand has with-with consumers is very, very important also for B2B brands, by the way. So we have a couple of B2B clients among, um, our clients. And, uh, this is exactly the same because at the end is how do you connect with the humans? And human can be consumers, but also in the B2B space is exactly the same. How do you present your brand and how you can empower the message of your brand with sound?

[(15:55)] Kristin: Exactly. I think we, you know, Veritonic and Amp really sing the same song there in that audio is such a complimentary marketing channel, you know, whether you're-you-you lean into display or social or video or, or any other, you know, marketing tactic, audio is everywhere, right?

[(16:11)] Michele: Yes.

[(16:12)] Kristen: And being screenless, it's such a seamless and effective way to-to reach your audiences. So we like to say that it should certainly be a part of every brand's strategy, no matter how big or small.

[(16:23)] Michele: Absolutely. And this-, um, by the way, uh, Kristin, this changed a lot in last years. We are moving from a push, uh, to a pull. So a lot of brands are aware of-, um, of the power of audio because they have seen the limitations of their previous if they have some sonic strategy and the limitation of having no sonic strategy. So through the digitalization and the-the-the transformation of brands, the topic, I mean, it's now very, very clear a part of the agenda for-, um, for the marketing people, the branding people, and uh, um, all people in the digital, uh, space for-for brands. So this is something that changed a lot in the last four or five years, uh, where we see that, uh, of course, we need sound, right? So the-the approach to the topic changed a lot on the client side.

[(17:14)] Kristin: That makes sense. But being a global company, do you see, or are you seeing any trends in the utilization of audio in particular parts of the world over the-over others or is it generally something that brands across the board are thinking about?

[(17:30)] Michele: Um, well, we see different-different-, um, uh, differences in the implementation, not in the-in the approach. For example, there are some markets, um, where the-the YouTube channel is the most relevant channel for the brand, and also by the way, for music, uh, and for artists, right? And there are some other markets where, uh, you see that, um, the-the television, uh, is not that important anymore. Uh, like-, um, like in other markets where it's still, uh, the most important channel. So there are differences, but they-the differences are more in the, um, configuration if you want, of the touchpoints and the weight of the different touchpoints adapting to the demographics. But there is no difference in terms of understanding that sound is key. This also confirms the idea that sounds is really universal because it's something that works across cultures and-and markets. Uh, we are the-we are lucky to work with brands like MasterCard globally, so we can-we oversee the implementation of sonic across very, very different markets. And we see that in every market, the understanding and the importance of sound is there, it's just the way they implement it and the way that they push the-the-, you know, the certain media, uh, against others, uh, this is the difference that you see among markets.

[(18:56)] Kristin: Right. That's obviously where the importance of being able to test audio creative to make sure it resonates within-, you know, within different markets across audiences. Cuz what might work well in, you know, one market might be offensive in another or, you know?

[(19:13)] Michele: Yes.

[(19:14)] Kristin: Just not-not-not translate well, if you will.

[(19:16)] Michele: Yes, exactly. Uh, you can do as a designer, of course, you-you do your homework to make sure that you are creating something that, you know, that can work everywhere. But we had a, um, a test with Veritonic, I think, um, 18 months ago for a Telenor, one of-of our clients. And was interesting because, uh, the-the test was done in, uh, Norway where Telenor-, uh, Telenor's home is, but also in, uh, uh, Bangladesh where, you know, um, uh, Telenor also has, um, uh, a local brand and uh, and was really interesting to see how very different markets reacted in a very similar way to the-to the sonic DNA. So this is also, um, the-the-the-the market researchers confirms also the aspect of the universality of sound and also the idea of a sonic DNA that can be adapted because we work, for example, with the pop star in Bangladesh than sharing with him the Sony DNA and creating a dance and music hit in Bangladesh. And of course, this happened in a very, very different way that happened than in Norway for, um, some other campaigns. But the core of the brand has been understood in the same way and this was very, very interesting coming from the research we did together with you.

[(20:32)] Kristin: That's fascinating. We-we see that a lot with global brands. They're-, you know, I think brands, in general, are understanding that, um, they- that personalization really does have to be there that testing that optimization, cuz it-, you know, it really does differ market to market.

[(20:49)] Michele: Yes, exactly. This is where the point, for example, with our, um, sonic hub, with our sonic space tool comes, uh, to help in terms of, uh, programmatic, right? So you can-you can, uh, decide which are the elements that don't change across the markets and which are the elements that are personalized and which elements can be, uh, so dynamic, you know, that you can really create, um, the highest level of engagement, uh, locally. So it's, it's a combination of, uh, understanding your basics and then having the flexibility to adapt to different situations.

[(21:24)] Kristin: Is there anything else? We-I know we covered a lot, uh, thus far. Is there anything else, any words of advice, any, uh, tips, tricks, et cetera, that you would want to use this platform to provide a brand that is either currently going through the process of thinking about what their sonic DNA would be or interested in getting one?

[(21:47)] Michele: Um, a good point. Um, maybe the tip is to trust the expert because, um, we know that is sometimes, um, not an easy process if you never created sound, right? So, uh, and-and a very fun and interesting part of our job is the educational part that-that, um, happens at the beginning of a new project with a new client. Everybody on the client side enjoys really working in sonic because it's something new. That's something very exciting. And, uh, uh, the-the clients always say, oh, this is the-the-the most interesting meeting of my week. I'm-I'm waiting for, you know, the sonic branding...

[(22:24)] Kristin: [laughs].

[(22:25)] Michele: ...uh, [iaudible]. Uh, and-and then this is an important part, just open yourself and try to apply, try to abstract what you already know from a visual perspective and-, uh, and, uh, more the-the typical branding perspective. Tr-try to follow what we try to apply to the sonic because this is exactly the same. It's just translated to a different domain with maybe different terminology and categories. But, um, this is very, very important, the-the question of openness, and also the idea to create something for the future. This is also very important. Try to abstract from a certain, you know, campaign or a very short-term scope. Try to think in sense of the entire brand that should evolve for many years. This is the way that you need to approach a sonic branding project, not with the urgency of something that needs to be done the day after tomorrow.

[(23:21)] Kristin: Exactly. So remain open-minded, trust the data and the experts, and think long-term.

[(23:28)] Michele: Correct. Perfect.[laughs]

[(23:30)] Kristin: [laughs] so much.

[(23:31)] Michele: I'm summarizing that.

[(23:32)] Kristin: [laughs]. I love it. All right. Well, we love to end our podcasts with some rapid-fire questions, if that sounds okay to you.

[(23:41)] Michele: [chuckles] Yeah, sure.

[(23:42)] Kristin: [laughs]. All right. So we haven't really dived into the podcast realm specifically, but assuming that you are one of the many, many, many consumers of podcasts these days, what was the last thing you purchased from a podcast ad?

[(23:55)] Michele: [laughs] Oh, God. Uh, to be honest, nothing, because I am completely I'm the prompt person for that. I'm completely not sensible for, um, podcast ads because when-whenever I-I hear an ad in a podcast, my brain is getting into, oh, what is this voice? Oh, the sound. And I'm completely dis distracted.

[(24:14)] Kristin: [laughs]

[(24:15)] Michele: But dis-distracted by the job. So it-it-it doesn't work with me, uh, as a person. Totally, totally the wrong target. [laughs]

[(24:23)] Kristin: Oh, your expertise has ruined you as a consumer. That's understandable though. [laughs]

[(24:28)] Michele: [laughs]. Yes.

[(24:29)] Kristin: I used to work in production, so I do the same thing with movie trailers, and television commercials.

[(24:34)] Michele: Yes, yes, yes.

[(24:35)] Kristin: All the things. Yes.

[(24:36)] Michele: I can imagine. it's even, even worse because the podcast is like limited, but if you work in the production, you go to the cinema, you want to watch a movie, and you are thinking about different things and this...

[(24:45)] Kristin: Oh, yeah. I'm like, I could have cut that better [laughs]. Absolutely. Let's-let's try one more. If you could be next-door neighbors with any one podcast host, who would you choose and why?

[(24:58)] Michele: [chuckles] Um, so podcast host. So basically, you know, I'm-I'm listening to a lot of marketing podcasts and, uh, um, all this kind of podcast that-that you listen if you don't have so much time, you want to, uh, to-to jump, uh, you know, around it. For example, one I love in, uh, Germany, uh, is the OMR podcast, very known in Germany, very successful because it's not only covering the typical, you know, marketing topics, but it's getting through entrepreneurship and all these kind of things. But probably, if I have to choose, my neighbor, uh, will not be a podcaster, but a radio host because I think that, um, I-I am a radio lover. I worked and hosted in radio and very early, early phases of my life. And, uh, I still enjoy a lot of radio as a medium, uh, and radio podcasts are kind of complementary. And, um, so yeah, I-I'm, uh, a passionate listener of BBC 6 on Sunday afternoon, so probably I will be happy to be the neighbor of Gilles Peterson when he hosts the-the-the worldwide, um, music show [laughs] in the BBC 6.

[(26:10)] Kristin: Well, that's a great answer. Um, I like that. I like that you...

[(26:13)] Michele: [laughs]

[(26:14)] Kristin: ...-you stepped to your roots. Nothing wrong with that at all. Thank you again, Michele. It is always a pleasure. So, so happy to have you on and to be able to catch up, and we look forward to having you on again soon.

[(26:27)] Michele: Thank you. Thank you, Kristin, for, um, having me in, uh, your podcast as well, [chuckles], and, uh, I'm looking forward to engaging with you in the- in the next couple of weeks.

[(26:38)] Kristin: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

[(26:40)] Narrator: At Veritonic, we remain committed to helping you get the most out of your audio strategy. If you're interested in learning more about audio research, testing, and measurement, visit veritonic.com or contact marketing@veritonic.com.

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