Kristen: On this episode of "The Sonic Truth," Kurt Kaufer of Ad Results Media joins Veritonics' Kristen Sharon for an insightful and thought-provoking discussion around all things audio, including measurement and attribution, predictions, and more. Thank you for tuning in, and welcome back to "The Sonic Truth." Welcome back to "The Sonic Truth." Thank you so much for tuning in. I am thrilled today to be joined by Kurt Kaufer, co-founder, partner, and chief growth officer at Ad Results Media. Welcome, Kurt.






Kurt Kaufer: Hey, Kristen. Thanks for having me.






Kristen: Thanks so much for being on. So, Kurt, just for those that are less familiar with you, you have a long history in marketing, digital, and in audio. So prior to co-founding the digital and audio consultancy Brown Bear Digital in 2013, you also co-founded Ad Results Media, where you currently are. In 2016, built and led digital customer acquisition and retention marketing efforts for Stance. But there's a little known fact about your experience as well when you were running acquisition marketing. Is it true that you bought the first-ever podcast ad on Adam Corolla?






Kurt: Yeah, I think it is. This is back in 2010, and we had a pre-existing relationship with Adam when he was on the terrestrial radio side. My current business partner, working closely with Adam in buying radio spots for Pro Flowers and Sherry's Berries. And at the time, I think Adam had left radio and started something, which was new and nascent at the time, called a podcast. And we were responsible for finding new revenue channels for Pro Flowers and Sherry's Berries. And I think Steve reached out to Adam and said, hey, would you be interested in endorsing Pro Flowers for Mother's Day? It was either Valentine's Day or Mother's Day. Would you be interested in endorsing Pro Flowers?






We'll do a rev [?] share with you and just see how it works. Through that campaign, our eyes really opened up to the power of the medium. Adam crushed it with his endorsement of probably our 1999 Full Dozen Roses bouquet. It was really a light-bulb moment for us. The power of endorsement media and an introduction, to podcasting as the next generation of influencers, of radio DJs in this digital media It really was the precipice for what eventually became Brown Bear Digital, with which myself and Steve Shanks and Mike Kropko formed. A few years later.






Kristen: That's amazing. And the rest is history. You guys were off to the races. So what is it about audio that you think makes it such a powerful reach vehicle?






Kurt: First and foremost, I think it boils down to the numbers that we're talking about reach. When I think about audio in general, and the different channels between terrestrial radio, streaming audio, satellites and podcasts specifically, the numbers are massive, 92% of the US population still listens to the radio. And I'm sure a lot of people don't think that because we've moved to a very sort of on-demand, nonlinear type of media consumption.






But it's very much relevant in the average Americans, media consumption habits, you have maybe 100 million subscribers to Spotify, probably close to 45 to 50 million. Subscribers for Pandora, probably Sirius XM is above 30 million. And you have podcasts. I still feel like it's the channel that is still fighting to get attention and relevance in the eyes of marketers. But you have 120 million people in the US who are 12 plus listening to podcasts regularly. I think the stat was like 89 million weekly. Not only are they listening, a third of the US population is engaging. They're spending, I think, on average, like nine hours a week listening to podcasts, and probably listening to three or four different mediums.






So it very much rivals, [?] the traditional layer channels of TV in print, but it also really matches up well against the digital channels that we feel like are core to our most marketers feel a core to their media mix, which are, social media, CTV, connected TV has become a huge part of the media mix, and even search to an extent. So I think there's a misnomer about the reach that we can get with audio. And I feel like, part of our remit as leaders in the industry is to continue to educate the market on the massive reach that we have. And how we can engage listeners and consumers, commensurately.






Kristen: Absolutely. To add to your great data points, there's also a massive discrepancy, right, between time spent and media spend. So I think the latest that I saw audio has like 31% of time spent, but less than 9% media spend. So I do think that there's definitely still some hesitation in terms of bringing that part of the media mix-up. As it relates to the other channels and it's complimentary, right? I think when you add a podcast to a terrestrial buy, they're seeing a 43% lift in incremental reach. So I think all the signals are there that this is an incredibly intimate, high reach, high return vehicle that more brands just need to take the plunge and try.






Kurt: Yeah, you bring up a good point. I believe that data point was from I Heart's audio comm conference last week and I attended it and that was one of my main takeaways. I was really surprised to see the large divide and disconnect between what marketers think is important and what the general American consumer thinks is important. I think Conal Byrne had a quote,[?] or it was either him or Malcolm during the conference. That basically was like, there's two things that you would have to rip out.[?] the cold, dead hands of the American consumer. It's sacks of course being number one. But I love my sacks too, but the second is podcasts. And I was shocked that was ranked highly on that site.[?] And to your point, marketers don't engage in the same way with that medium. I think it's because they don't engage the same way with that medium that they're not thinking of it as a material part of the media mix.






They're not understanding how to leverage the medium appropriately to generate whatever KPI they want as part of the media mix to achieve the end result. And I think in general, when you look at the media buying universe and the disconnect from the American consumer, I think they ran through other data points to like how the average consumer really values religion or military or some of these other data points and how marketers just qualitatively think differently about these things. There's either no right or wrong with it. The Bible exists. And that division, I think, in some ways or that gap in some ways has really prevented media budgets from interiorly shifting, particularly for enterprise brands, really shifting towards a medium that really could get exactly what they want.






Kristen: It's true. Yeah. Is there anything that you would tell brands that are hesitant to get into the space that would maybe help them get over some of that hesitation?






Kurt: Yeah. There's probably two areas that when I talk to brands or if I'm just out in the industry and chatting, I think first is, there's a general misunderstanding of the medium itself. I think marketers, particularly on the enterprise side, don't really know how to think about audio and podcasts specifically. [inaudible] Hey, this needs to be, this is an performance channel or this is a mid to lower funnel channel. We don't know where this budget should be. Should it live on a brand side? Should it live on the performance budget side? Does it live within our social influencer group or does it live somewhere else? And I think that confusion creates a lot of paralysis in how to think about, where does this fit within our mix and how do we think about it from an incremental perspective and how do we think about it from a medium that could really drive material results for us.






It becomes like education. [inaudible] And I think going out in the industry and attending events, sitting on panels, trying to get in front of enterprise marketers directly to explain like this really is a full-funnel channel. It can hit like the top of the funnel brand awareness, tonnage KPIs that you may have. It can also drive consideration and conversion depending on how each part of the audio and media mix specifically is leveraged. I think it's about educating them on that. And once we break through that barrier, that inflection point where we feel like it's more ubiquitous and understanding that's where we're really going to see taking in sort of the ad dollars moving on, on the enterprise side specifically. I feel like direct to consumer marketers understand the meeting really well. They're very performance-driven, results-driven, and they understood that this medium was perfect for that.






I think the other hesitation I see a lot is on the measurement side [?] And I think we as an industry have really taken great strides, [inaudible] in the last couple of years. With the help of brands like yourself, like Veritonic, and platforms like yourself in removing a lot of the misunderstanding about the data efficacy and the results efficacy that we're seeing. Like I think historically, as you know, we used to measure just directly through vanity URLs, promo codes, or post-checkout surveys.






With the introduction and proliferation of digital measurement, pixel-based measurement, like Veritonic's tool I feel, we've been able to close the gap in terms of marketers understanding that like, Hey, this medium can be measured in the same way as their digital influence, right? This medium and the data behind it can be thought of in the same way. It could be processed the same way, analyzed the same way, synthesized the same way where there's not like two mutually exclusive data sets, one that has this direct data, right? And one, which is a vanity and promo codes, and then they have all their other digital data from your other channels to one where they're adjusting digital data properly.






And I think there's also the where we still need some work in the space is moving from this perception that measurement is still sort of early stage, right? That it's like hyper fragment and there's almost a paralysis of platforms to use where- if we make it easier and more democratized for people to say, okay, we can measure it. This is the same as our digital media buys. I feel like we're really be doing a favor for our industry overall. And in fact, making it easier for those buys to be executed and measured.






Kristen: Absolutely. And I think to your point too, a lot of it really comes down to education, right? They need to, like the marketers, the data and insights teams, the actual buyers of the measurement technology. They all just need to really understand what's possible and how it's possible. And that it really is transparent and credible, and it can be trusted just like their other forms of measurement for the other channels with nuances, right? Like audio is its own beast.






To some extent in terms of what's possible and attribution and all that. But I think there's definitely the advent of attribution, especially obviously selfishly from our perspective, but in general, I think is definitely helping with move the audio advertising industry forward. Are there any enhancements that you to attribution or to measurement in particular that either you think will be coming and therefore we'll continue to help that movement or that you'd like to see that you think will help even more brands incorporate audio into the fold?






Kurt: Yeah. I think it's continuing to work through from a methodology perspective, like understanding the right way to match data back. What I was talking about earlier is creating ease for marketers so that they understand that this is almost like a length for length. Right. So digital, you have to click. You can measure from click to website visit to conversion fairly easily, right? And it's almost more tangible where obviously on the audio side, it's a bit more difficult because you're still eliciting a response through listening, not necessarily a clip.






So Veritonic and the other platforms have to go through a process and a methodology to take that data to ensure that we're matching correctly the listener to the conversion. And I think we'll continue to get better as an industry, Veritonic's working very hard on it as well as other platforms to make sure that the data is as accurate as possible in terms of that match back and understanding the impact that that listen had or that download had to that eventual sale or whatever action is being elicited by or [?] desired by the brand.






I think also YouTube is becoming a medium where now I think most podcasts are. It's the number one platform for listening to a podcast. I think we're moving into this interesting [inaudible] area of podcasts and vodcasts and YouTube. And I think being able to understand the interaction effect of how consumers consume that via across these platforms is going to be parallel to telling the story of like, hey, this is really effective.






And here's how we should be placing a media budget across these platforms to most effectively create like this portfolio. And I know yourselves and some other players out there are really focused on bringing that to life and making sure that we understand that MTA across, even podcasts and YouTube specifically to make sure that we're understanding the true impact of that campaign.






I think moving towards a larger MTA too, across all of audio, right? Where I look at audio as more like a portfolio. We get the desired KPIs from a client and how do we most effectively get that KPI? That can be across streaming, it could be across podcasts, it could be across satellite video, trust real, and so on. How do we tell the story of the interaction effect of incrementality of buying across this portfolio? The portfolio level cost per acquisition or ROAS, or again, whatever the KPI is accurate. And it eliminates some of the waste that we might be seeing by trying to buy a fragment of the matter or thinking about these channels in a mutually exclusive way.






So I think, and we're moving towards that, which is great. I think the final piece is media mix model vendors and making sure that they're ingesting particularly the attribution data properly, but also understanding like the direct response or the direct measurement [inaudible] and promo code and [inaudible] surveys or post-checkout surveys, making sure that they're truly ingesting that data so that audio is being properly attributed in the media mix through those media mix models. There's a part of me that thinks that right now that's not happening. I think there are some vendors out there that might be doing it better than others, but I think we, as an industry, need to continue to [inaudible] point, educate not only the consumer but maybe even some of these media mix model vendors so that they understand the proper way to ingest audio, how it typically operates.






When it comes to an attribution window, the attribution window of audio is going to be very different than the attribution window of like, say, a Facebook ad or an Instagram ad, right? So making sure that the right levers are being pulled on that side. So if the brands are reliant solely on the media mix models those platforms are telling an accurate story of what's truly happening with audio.






Kristen: That's a really great point. And in the case where a brand or an advertiser is heavily relying today on post-transaction surveys and influencers and things like that, is there a world where attribution measurement can sit alongside that, or does it have to be one or the other in your opinion?






Kurt: No, absolutely. They should be co-joined , and we recommend that, right? We think that every single brand should be using digital attribution as part of their measurement mix. We also recommend using direct recognizance,[?] almost like promo codes or end URLs and post-checkout surveys. We typically, at Ad Results, we'll try and get like that, right? So the best way to get the most accurate read of your campaign is really having that data, all that data together. And then we go in the back end, and we'll try and relate that to come up with like our adjusted CPA, or what we think is like a CPA based on the trend relation of this data. And that is what is going to give you the most accurate read versus just being [inaudible] on any one of those four exclusively because if you're having a post-checkout survey, there's going to be natural bias there in terms of what a consumer would choose, right?






If it's a promo code, then everyone's going to be offering a discount. If it's a vanity [?] URL, I think I read a [inaudible] somewhere less than 5% of listeners will actually go to the actual vanity[?] URL, almost like they're going to the whole page. So there's biases across all these platforms. But if we can bring all this data together and synthesize it in a way and try and relate it in a way that makes sense and that is accurate, that is a proper way to truly come up with what that KPI really is.






Kristen: Absolutely. And a little bit of a tangent, but there's a blog post on your site called Benefits of Audio Advertising in 2023, one of which was audience targeting. Can you tell us a little bit about what's possible with targeting and audio and why that's so beneficial?






Kurt: Yeah, what I get most excited about in audio specifically is contextual targeting, right? The ability to deliver messages to customers when and where they're most likely to take action. Where are they showing intent? Where are they opting into? This idea of not pushing the message out to them in a way that it's white noise [?]it's really finding them in a way where they're engaged, there's already a particular trust and credibility established, maybe with the host, maybe with the publisher, based on the content that they're reading.






It's really moving things from the who they are, so your demo, your demographic, your device, maybe your geographic of like where they live to where they are specifically on the web, right? [inaudible] And what they want to engage with. A good example of that is, there could be podcasts and niches related to working out or to cooking or to sports, or even a partying or whatever it might be, right? You can identify through those transcriptions, like what the content is on a podcast in particular, and streaming obviously has a lot of capabilities, but we can go through and we can identify the genre and truly the contextualization of that content and then be able to either buy programmatically or just we understand from a media point of view on the back end, with all our proprietary data, like where to place those shows so that you're reaching the most relevant audience at the right time when they're engaged with the content. and to me that is incredibly powerful relative to some other means like [inaudible] or even some of these just a lot of push looking.[?] It happens on social media, right?






And obviously, there's a lot of targeting that happens there.


But I feel like contextualization of the content that we have from a podcast point of view and the obvious contextualization from streaming, where you can actually look at genres of music, you can look at moods of music, you could look at playlists and any other if there are niche. It's incredibly powerful for an advertiser. The other component that I think is really important there is the overlay of content safety into that contextualization. Not only can we understand the intent of the consumer, we can also say we don't want to align our brand even though they're showing intent on the website XYZ, we don't necessarily want to align our brand with that content, whether it be because there's profanity or it's suggested or whatever the case is. So overlaying that brand safe [inaudible] and brand suitability store is paramount to not only hit them where they are, but making sure that we're aligning our brand properly with the content that aligns with our brand ethos, for example. [inaudible]






Kristen: Couldn't agree more, especially on the audience targeting front, the contextualization piece. There have been so many studies that have


come out that consumers, avid podcast listeners, streaming audio listeners, they're engaged and they actually don't mind the advertising because it truly is so resonating and contextually appropriate that it becomes a part of the experience, unlike other channels where it's disruptive or it's not relevant. So I'm with you that that's definitely very powerful in addition to the brand safety piece for sure.






Kurt: Absolutely.






Kristen: So if the CMO of an industry-leading brand came up to you today and asked you to convince him in one minute or less why he or she should be advertising on audio, what would you tell that person?






Kurt: Oh, man. One minute elevator pitch for a medium that is incredibly powerful. It's a tough one, but I bring it down in the four components. This is typically how I think about audio and podcasting. I call it the four R's, and maybe there's a fifth R in there, but it's reach, relevance, resonance, and response, which could be translated into, say, ROI, right, depending on your goals. When I look at reach, we talked about it. Incredible reach, right, as a medium, as a whole, medium as a whole, and also on the individual's chat basis, right? You can get tonnage. You can get frequency. So if you're an enterprise brand really looking to get just touch points, right, with consumers,


that exists.






When we talk about relevance, the content, we just talked about contextualization. We can find content that aligns with your brand, that aligns with the consumer very easily, and is incredibly relevant. So you have consumers, let's say podcasters, for example, you have consumers who are opting into this medium and choosing to spend nine hours a week engaging with this medium, engaging with their hosts. That trust and credibility is already built, right? So brands can come in, and they can leverage, and leverage sounds like a negative in that sense, but they can align, their brand with that trust and credibility. When consumers are spending, 20% of their working hours on a medium, and they're choosing to do that, and the brand can come in and say,


hey, we actually offer this product that's going to enhance your life even more; That is incredibly powerful, right? And that translates into the fact that we're finding content that resonates with those consumers versus just having to push our message out there with the hope that somebody engages with it.






Then there's the response and the ROI, right? And I think the numbers speak for themselves. I know you mentioned this out earlier, where you mentioned 42%, you know, branding [inaudible], I think. There's another Edison Research study that said, like, on a podcast in particular, 74% of the respondents said that they visited a brand's website after hearing that, and I think 72% said that they would consider buying the product, right?






So, again, I think sometimes there's this misconception that audio in a particular podcast, I mean, is really just an up-the-funnel medium, and that's not the case at all. I think direct-to-consumer marketers, including myself back in the Crow flower days, turned onto the medium because of its performance capabilities and its responsive capabilities. And it's for all the reasons that we just talked about in terms of aligning with influencers, and I'll call them influencers versus show hosts who already have established trust and credibility. It's their ability to deliver messages contextually within a show in an authentic way. It's the ability for a brand to align their values and their products with audiences that they know will benefit from them and do it in a way that is really intimate.






There's a bunch of neuroscience studies that have been done that show that brain reacts to an audio medium versus a visual medium, and the connectivity there and the impression that it makes and the compare and contrast that. I know that was over a minute, but I really break it down to those four R's. And when I'm, you know, as a marketer myself, when I'm looking to go to market with a campaign it checks every box for me. Reach, relevance, resonance, and response.






Kristen: I love it. The four Y's of audio. And I think that would be a lengthy pitch. Maybe you got stuck in the elevator for a couple minutes.






Kurt: There's three more.[?] I've got to refine it. Typically, I can keep it the other ten seconds with the four R's.






Kristen: That's it. You could have stopped there, but obviously it needs some explanation. No, I'm with you. Of course, I'm biased, but I do think it's one of the most, if not the most, intimate and contextual mediums for advertisers today, as


opposed to some of the other channels. So, that's a really difficult argument to argue with, if you will. So, I think you nailed it. Is there anything else before we move on to some rapid-fire fun questions that you wanted to leave our listeners with today?






Kurt: Nothing other than, you know, if you're curious about audio and podcasting in particular, look into it. Contact myself and I don't know if there's show notes, Kristen, but we could put my contact information in the show notes. Contact someone at Ad Results or just in the industry in general. Again, as a marketer, I truly believe in the medium. It's not just bias. It's something that worked for me when I worked on the brand side a very long time ago, and it's something that's still working today for our clients. So, my message is, let's continue to build the industry and educate the marketing and brand side world on the power of the medium so that we can all achieve success.






Kristen: That's a great message, and we'll be working alongside you as hard as we can to continue the education around the medium and just continue to tell those benefits, because it really is a wonderful medium that everyone should be taking advantage of.






Kurt: Love it.






Kristen: Okay, are you ready for a couple out-of-the-box questions?






Kurt: I am.






Kristen: If you could wake up tomorrow and play one instrument better than anyone else in the world, what would it be?






Kurt: The guitar.






Kristen: A little, like, Ed Sheeran style?






Kurt: Do you have [inaudible] There is no back and forth. So there's a part of me, I grew up I like all genres of music, but I grew up listening to punk music, three chords. If I could just start with the three chords, I'd start there. But then incredible musicians across rock and roll that have resonated with me. I'm always just blown away by, even, I'm not a huge Santa Ana fan, but his ability to play the guitar or any of these amazing musicians. I just think it's an instrument that I find it's really difficult to play. It's an instrument that captivates people. It's almost [inaudible] in a way when I hear a guitar. And it speaks to me in sort of a, at the sound [inaudible]out there, but it really does speak to me. It's, I think, an instrument that I would love the challenge of conquering.






Kristen: I love it. And it's true. It's, it's very unique and it's diverse and there's all sorts of different kinds of music and feelings you can evoke through that music. So I think that's a great answer. Okay. Also music related. If you could only hear one song and one song only for the rest of your life, what would it be?






Kurt: I'll take the safe route here. I think it has to be- I'll Back You Up by Dave Matthews. Because that was my wedding song and my wife chose it. And I feel like if there's one song I need to choose, that's going to be a good one. Happy wife, happy day.






Kristen: Great answer. Nobody has ever been considerate about those around them that would also have to listen to it. So that is a great answer.






Kurt: There you go. I love it.






Kristen: All right. Last final question. If you were putting together an audio memoir,


who would you choose to voice it?






Kurt: I got in with Morgan Freeman. He's amazing. His voiceovers are amazing. I feel like he's done lots of documentaries before, which have completely captivated me. [inaudible] emotion, like he could do that through his tone, his inflection. It's pretty amazing. So it would be an honor if he did that for me.






Kristen: Awesome. Well, this has been such a pleasure, Kurt. Thank you again for joining us. It's been so wonderful. And we hope to have you on again.






Kurt: Thanks, Kristen. It was really a pleasure.






Kristen: Thank you so much.










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